CMCL Interview: Elle Potruch

00:01.06
Julie Sowash
Welcome back to the Changing Minds, Changing Lives podcast. Again, my name is Julie Sewash. I'm the executive director and co-founder of Disability Solutions. Thanks for tuning in today for another YouTube or Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen to your podcast session of Changing Minds and Changing Lives. um If you didn't catch our last episode with Callum Grevers, such an amazing conversation um really opened my eyes a lot to Thinking differently and using words differently around representation and lived experiences and and really um just growing our confidence in our disability identity and how that confidence changed his lives and how it changed

00:46.73
Julie Sowash
calums life so but today i get to have a conversation with someone that helps us with a different type of representation and i'm so so excited excuse me to introduce el patroosh to our podcast today. Elle is an independent talent manager who works in partnerships, negotiation, advocacy. I actually have been watching her in action part of this time as we were prepping to to record today to help a variety of ah deaf and disabled um talent get roles in

01:25.78
Julie Sowash
all types of things that Ella's gonna tell us about. Ella, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us and and do a much better introduction of yourself than I just did.

01:37.27
Elle Potruch
Well, hi, Julie. Thank you so much for having me. As you mentioned, hi, my name is Elle. I'm a talent manager. I work specifically with people who are members of the deaf and or disabled communities. And the types of talent that I work with sort of span a wide range, but most of the folks that I work with are actors, online digital creators, um public speakers, and consultants.

02:04.44
Elle Potruch
um And the work that I do is within that another pretty wide range of working with brand partnerships for know online advertising, also working in different TV shows, different films, movies, commercials, print modeling, online and advertising that way. Also working in the public speaking space with different um Bookings for different, obviously different kinds of people want different types of things from speakers. And then working in consulting for accessibility and disability inclusion.

02:41.25
Julie Sowash
Oh, some of your clients or some of the companies and brands that you have helped your clients work with is pretty incredible. um Nike, Revlon, Samsung, HBO, Lego, CVS on the BBC at Lionsgate. Tell me, how did you get into this career as a talent manager for people with disabilities?

03:06.79
Elle Potruch
Sure. So I had started to become interested in, well, I guess sort of going back to the beginning, I joined the disabled, I joined the disabled community later in life. I wasn't born with a disability, but I acquired mine um around the time I was in college and around the time that was and That was something that I was just experiencing. I was you know becoming part of the disabled community online and learning a lot about what challenges our community faced, what I was facing personally. And I always had a really deep-seated interest in working in the entertainment industry. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, you know kind of part of the course.

03:59.96
Elle Potruch
bye um you know, when I started working, I'm so sorry.

04:10.33
Elle Potruch
um After college, when I entered the workforce, I was starting to work at a talent agency. And, you know, as I was working as an assistant, figuring out my lay of the land and what I wanted to do, you know, it was always in the back of my mind that something that interested me was, you know, wanting to increase representation for people with disabilities and seeing how I could do that moving forward in my career. And then I was connected with a young woman named Keely Cat Wells who ran a company called Sea Talent. I'm sure you're intimately familiar with Keely. She's like a huge name in our industry. So I was connected with her and we kept in touch for probably the better part of a year before I started working at Sea Talent. And I was really excited about the opportunity to combine something I was incredibly passionate about

05:01.92
Elle Potruch
with something that I had background in and skill doing. And that was actually a real job. That's always nice. um So that's sort of how I got started working in it. um And that was back in 2022 when I officially started working as a talent manager.

05:21.85
Julie Sowash
Right, yeah. I got to um do a panel with Keely at Transform in March. That was the first time I met her. She's fantastic. Definitely and enjoyed our conversations together. um So you get into talent management. which is Was it immediately on the disability side or was it more general at first?

05:44.05
Elle Potruch
So when I started working as a talent manager, it was at C Talent, which was specifically representing deaf and disabled performers in the industry.

05:47.87
Julie Sowash
Okay.

05:51.89
Elle Potruch
So at the previous agency that I was working at was more so in the traditional entertainment industry for TV film commercial. And I wasn't representing talent there at the time I was working as an assistant, helping other agents and their rosters. um And then, you know, I was able to make the leap to start representing my own talent and that was at C Talent. So it was pretty much immediately the first people that I was working with were members of the disabled community.

06:23.05
Julie Sowash
gotcha. And how, so yeah you're relatively young in your career. um What are some of the big barriers or opportunities that you've seen so far? um And then, you know, where do you think we what are the where do we go from here to make it better?

06:45.53
Elle Potruch
Yeah, I think that, you know, I had the um I was pretty lucky in finding the role that I found working at a talent agency way back in 2017 when I first started. It was you know my second job after graduating college. It was my second job in the entertainment industry. um And you know most agency positions, you either start in the mail room or you need to have some kind of experience, start working on a desk.

07:20.65
Elle Potruch
um And the types of positions that are starting in places like mail rooms or unpaid internships, those places are obviously a little bit harder for people who need to either A, make money, um or B, have you know different access requirements or needs. So I was very lucky to start out with a job where they said, hey, you just seem like the organized person. Let's try it out.

07:47.74
Elle Potruch
um because I had no experience working at an agency prior to that. So I worked at a smaller boutique agency. It wasn't like one of the big, you know, big name ones. It wasn't like a CAA or like a WME, but I really was able to to grow within my role there and learn so much. I think additional barriers Um, are just like any other barrier when it comes to employment for disabled people is mostly people just like not understanding what people can or cannot do. Um, I think that when it comes to, like when it came to my personal experience, like there were definitely times in which I needed additional support or flexibility with my job.

08:34.75
Elle Potruch
based on what I was experiencing or going through as it related to my disability or my health medically. And luckily I had great bosses who were super understanding and, um you know, we were able to make it work and figure it out, but there's definitely a lot of places that don't care. um And they're like, well, you're just like a cog in, in the machine of this place. So I don't really care that you have to like,

09:03.32
Elle Potruch
take off every other Thursday early to go to physical therapy. you know um So I think it's just a lot of its attitude and attitudin all.

09:08.98
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

09:13.32
Elle Potruch
And I think that they just don't realize like how easy it is to accommodate people.

09:20.97
Julie Sowash
Yeah. And it's just, it is. It's really just that simple. we We do it for single moms.

09:24.83
Elle Potruch
Yeah.

09:26.89
Julie Sowash
We do it for, you know, any other, you know, any other kind of need that someone has, but you put that label accommodation or disability on it and suddenly it becomes like this huge ordeal.

09:38.62
Elle Potruch
Yeah, for sure. And I think that, um you know, especially the but attitudes surrounding working at one of like the really big agencies, those are really competitive. They're very, um I mean, pre-COVID, the types of like schedules that, you know, I had friends that worked at these big agencies, they would have to wake up super early, get to work, do work all day, and then they were like expected to go to all these networking events.

10:08.41
Elle Potruch
and network with people and then go home and do work and then come back. And I think that obviously, especially when you're expected to like go to events and meet people, probably a lot of those places aren't going to be the most accessible. Um, so I think that there's barriers put in place, you know, mostly added to a million decidedly. So I think that, um, yeah, those are really like the main barriers for people to like get into the industry. But I also think that sometimes people just,

10:38.34
Elle Potruch
don't know what they want to do when they're 22.

10:45.99
Elle Potruch
um I certainly didn't. um My goal after graduating college wasn't to become a talent agent or to become a talent manager. My goal was I want to work in the entertainment industry.

10:59.39
Elle Potruch
I don't know what.

11:00.85
Julie Sowash
Right.

11:00.94
Elle Potruch
But I know what I like doing and I know what I don't like doing. I know that I'm not a writer. I know that I'm not a director. But I know that I enjoy like being part of a team, helping make something happen.

11:13.10
Elle Potruch
I love watching like the fruits of my labor. And and so so that led to working at like a production company for a while.

11:16.63
Julie Sowash
So, go ahead.

11:22.25
Elle Potruch
um And then once that ended, I just sort of on a whim applied to a job at a talent agency. And then I was there for four and a half years.

11:32.19
Julie Sowash
Wow. um And so what is the what is the day in a life of ah a talent manager look like? I mean, even as we were getting ready to record, you had something very urgent. I don't know what it was. um Something very urgent that you had to do right then so that you can get one of your clients hopefully working um and in some sort of roller campaign or activity. So you know what what's that life look like for you?

12:01.79
Elle Potruch
Yeah, I think that the best way to describe it is that It's usually never boring. It's never really the same. um A lot of what I do on a day-to-day basis is, let's say, started of starting from the beginning, obviously, it's a lot of emails.

12:19.59
Elle Potruch
It's a lot of emails.

12:20.76
Julie Sowash
So many emails.

12:22.14
Elle Potruch
But what those emails entail is usually it's a lot of contract negotiation. um Well, how about, I think it might be easiest for me to like walk through Like how like a deal might work with a client.

12:36.22
Julie Sowash
Oh, that would be great. Yeah.

12:38.53
Elle Potruch
Yeah. So usually I would say like. 85% of the time the deals that I work with on my clients are inbound inquiries. So these are things that come in directly from brands or directly from marketing agencies that are running campaigns on behalf of a brand. So let's say Clinique is a client of 123 agency and they say, hey, we're running a TikTok campaign for summer. We're coming out with like a new line of mascara, and we want to hire like some beauty creators. 123 agency is going to go find and cast those creators and run the whole campaign. So we will get a request from an agency, they say, hey, we're running this campaign with Clinique, we think

13:27.20
Elle Potruch
Your client would be a great fit. here are Here's what we're looking for. Here's the sort of creative brief. um Is this something they'd be interested in? like Let us know what their rates would be. um Here's the sort of schedule of all that. and I take that to my client and I go, hey, yeah do you like Clinique? What are your thoughts and feelings? I would say probably 99% of the time, i can I know whether or not it's a yes or no based on the ah request from the the brand.

13:56.03
Elle Potruch
And then that's when we start getting into the negotiating or figuring out, hey, well, this is my client's rate. And they go, sometimes they say, great, we can do that. And most of the time they go, well, what if we did this? um And then it's a little bit of back and forth of a haggle of figuring out, you know, ensuring that my clients are getting, you know,

14:17.01
Elle Potruch
paid appropriately for the work that they're doing. And it's negotiating a lot of really fine deal points from the amount of deliverables that they're giving them. Like, is it one Instagram post?

14:27.66
Elle Potruch
Is it two reels? Is it three Instagram stories? And how long can the brand use those things?

14:34.09
Julie Sowash
Mm hmm.

14:34.11
Elle Potruch
um Like, can they repost and share it on their page for forever? Or can they do that for like 30 days or 60 days?

14:40.32
Julie Sowash
Right.

14:44.41
Elle Potruch
Um, and is it exclusive? So can my client not do any other beauty related brand deals for like a month?

14:51.39
Julie Sowash
Okay.

14:51.50
Elle Potruch
So there's a lot of other little things that we figure out all the nitty gritty. And then once that's all said and done, which is, you know, 50 or 60 emails later.

15:03.93
Elle Potruch
That's what it feels like. um you know Once we get all that back and forth settled, you know we get a creative brief. And I'd say sometimes the brand will want to like get on a call with my client and just talk them through what the campaign looks like, what they're really looking to to highlight and focus on. So let's say they're like, hey, we really want to educate you about this new product that we're coming out with. like Let's say if it's like a skincare type of thing that has a lot of different you know medicinal qualities or different things that they really want you to focus on. Like, hey, it has this ingredient and we want you to talk about this and let's, you know, nine times out of 10 skincare ingredients have really difficult names. They want to make sure you're pronouncing that correctly. They want to make sure that everything that you're including is, you know, approved and appropriate for the brand. So we go through the creative brief. um Then we go into like a timeline. My clients will have a specific

16:01.80
Elle Potruch
timeline to go and create content, and they'll produce a draft for approval, submit that, that goes through, you you know, maybe a round or two approvals, they might say, hey, can you change the music in the background? Hey, can you do this instead of that? um Once we get to a place where obviously obviously everything's approved, wonderful, and then Everything's approved. Great. Awesome. At that point, in the meantime, we've probably already been, once we get the finer deal points approved, out of the, the content starting is usually when I start going through like the, the physical meat of like a contract. um So while the whole creative process happening, we're working on a contract, wanting to make sure that that's all in order, getting all those details oriented. And then once everything is

16:56.90
Elle Potruch
signed and approved and ready to go. Then my client's able to go live, the content's posted, um follow up with invoicing, the boring stuff. And okay, when did I get high?

17:08.81
Julie Sowash
Hey.

17:09.81
Elle Potruch
When did I get cut off?

17:12.44
Julie Sowash
So you literally were saying you're talking about the ingredients on the, on the skincare.

17:17.64
Elle Potruch
Okay. yeah

17:18.84
Julie Sowash
So I think the last thing I heard was 90% of skincare ingredients have weird names, I think is what you said.

17:26.62
Elle Potruch
Um, okay. So I think that, um, I can sort of hop back in with saying something like, okay, so we, you know, go through the creative brief and then my client is given that go ahead to, you know, start creating content, start getting that handled.

17:30.84
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

17:44.81
Elle Potruch
In the meantime, I'm working on the backend on the, you know, legalese of a contract. You know, are we talk over email about the finer deal points of, you know, the big ticket items, and then we start getting into the Navy Grid illegally, solve that stuff.

18:01.38
Elle Potruch
The client goes to create content, and then we um go into approvals.

18:01.53
Julie Sowash
Okay.

18:09.50
Elle Potruch
The client might, the brand might come back and say, hey, we actually want you to use this music instead of that music, or hey, can we get a clip of you, ah you know, putting the ah lotion on your hand instead of your face or something?

18:24.34
Elle Potruch
like that They might have specific requests that way. And then once everything is approved and done and ready and signed, then things go live. And then we go into you know invoicing, the boring stuff, my favorite part.

18:36.61
Julie Sowash
Yeah, I was gonna say I like that part

18:36.66
Elle Potruch
um Yeah, great part. um So there's obviously, you know there's a lot of moving parts to make sure that you know everything moves smoothly.

18:48.75
Elle Potruch
you know While I'm only handling my one client and their one job on this, the agency is handling, you know, they could be handling five creators for the but the campaign or they could be handling a hundred. So they're handling a lot of things. So it's a lot of follow-ups just to make sure that we're hitting all the benchmarks that we need to be hitting, wanting to make sure that we have everything in order.

19:15.52
Elle Potruch
or doing everything correctly. Also make sure that you know the language is what the brand wants, et cetera, et cetera. So you know any one of those pieces of that brand pipeline puzzle is something I could be doing on a day-to-day basis. And then when it comes to things like fielding inquiry fielding incoming inquiries, you know there's a lot of stuff that I have to vet to make sure that it's a real inquiry if it's coming from a real person or if my clients are interested in it. you know I have a lot of clients who you know do a lot of educational work in the disability space with people who have chronic illnesses or diseases. And there's a lot of companies out there who want to use that platform to talk about like their new medical device or a new exciting thing that's happening in the medical space. And my clients aren't doctors. They aren't medical professionals.

20:12.28
Elle Potruch
yep me have to figure out, you know, what's the best use of my client's expertise as someone with lived experience versus someone who's like a scientist, talk about this new advancement in this medical treatment.

20:21.77
Julie Sowash
Right.

20:27.80
Elle Potruch
And then, you know, like when currently working on um you know some event coordination for a client who's going to go be a panelist at an event, so handling the accessibility requirements for my clients and What a lot of that entails is just educating people. It was recently having a conversation with the head of, you know, with an event coordinator for an event and my client is deaf and, you know, I was explaining to them, like, you know, what we need in terms of, you know, his preferred interpreter and, you know, all the bits and pieces that are required with that. and

21:06.92
Elle Potruch
You know, it's a it's a film related event. So I was like, well, there's going to be screenings. You know, do you have captions available, you know, on the on the film? So they're going to be captioned. Because obviously, if you have, you know, I'm not assuming that my client is going to be the only deaf person there.

21:22.68
Julie Sowash
Right.

21:23.95
Elle Potruch
It's possible, but let's not assume. And there's plenty of other reasons why people need captions.

21:26.56
Julie Sowash
Yep.

21:29.09
Elle Potruch
I'm someone who I like to say I can't hear without my captions. Um, and you might need captions if you have an auditory processing disorder or many other reasons that people use captions and appreciate them.

21:43.29
Elle Potruch
And, you know, their response was, oh, we're actually going to have captions. Like if people want to use them, they can have like an app on their phone and the captions are going to be through there.

21:53.32
Elle Potruch
And it's actually like, you know, AI generated captions. I was like, I just got myself rolling my eyes in the middle of this conversation.

22:01.36
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

22:02.42
Elle Potruch
Um, cause I was like, oh, I was like, they're like, that's like actually it's the decision we ended up going with. And I was like, well, that's really interesting because like, did you ask like a deaf person or like, did you ask someone who actually uses captions?

22:08.00
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

22:14.45
Elle Potruch
I was like, cause I don't know if you know that it's not an equitable experience for people who rely on captions to have possibly inaccurate ones and something that they can't look at us like two screens at the same time.

22:27.11
Elle Potruch
I don't know if you know that. Um, so. You know, it was me and then interpret, like the interpreter on the call. That was just like, I i had to stop my face from happening.

22:37.38
Julie Sowash
Yeah, I have to do that a lot.

22:37.63
Elle Potruch
um Yeah.

22:38.78
Julie Sowash
Yeah, I feel ya.

22:40.60
Elle Potruch
But I think that, so, you know, a lot of my job does involve like advocating on behalf of my clients and educating people, but I, I love the fight. And that's why I like my job so much.

22:51.83
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

22:52.10
Elle Potruch
um And it does get frustrating when, you know, people's responses like, Oh, okay. Like we, didn't expect that to be like the answer. We don't have the you know the filmmakers who are submitting product who are submitting their films to this film festival. We didn't require them to make all the movies captioned.

23:18.97
Elle Potruch
but blah bla like you know There's a lot of other moving pieces that people have to figure out. And is it my place to sit there and say, well, my client's going to be there for a day and a half. So he might want to see any of those movies that are going to be screened that day.

23:34.35
Elle Potruch
All of them need to be captioned no matter what or what. So like if they're all it's sort of like trying to trying to figure out a middle ground that works, that's doable, but also isn't going to like, you know, make anyone

23:47.99
Julie Sowash
Mm hmm.

23:56.36
Elle Potruch
You know, try to make anyone feel like accessibility is excessive.

24:04.04
Julie Sowash
Right. Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's always the like the middle ground of like

24:07.15
Elle Potruch
The fine line.

24:09.28
Julie Sowash
you We want you to think about this and we want you to do it, but we're also not trying to shame you so that next time a ah disabled actor comes to you or creator, you just go like, we don't work with those people, sorry.

24:16.42
Elle Potruch
Yeah.

24:23.96
Elle Potruch
Yeah, it's really hard to shame people into caring.

24:25.11
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

24:26.62
Elle Potruch
I wish you could. um Yeah, I wish you could shame people into caring.

24:28.69
Julie Sowash
I've tried for so long, it does not work.

24:33.11
Elle Potruch
It would be so much easier. But I think that...

24:35.22
Julie Sowash
I would shame a lot, yes.

24:37.98
Elle Potruch
um So yeah, a lot of event coordination, handling travel, booking, making sure that people are getting on flights that they need to be getting on, making sure that the flights that they're on are the right ones.

24:49.66
Elle Potruch
um so So... It's a lot of different moving pieces and I i describe it as it's a lot of spinning plates and the plates are also on fire.

24:52.90
Julie Sowash
So all good. Um, you said you said something that interested me, um, that I want to go back to. So you said about 85% of your.

25:16.92
Julie Sowash
about 85% of your, I don't know, activities or or roles are inbound. And when we first started talking, I thought, she's got to be out there fighting every tooth and nail just to get studios, agencies, creators, brands, even think about including people with disabilities. So do you feel like you're actually, like you feel positive about where the industry is going about representation?

25:47.62
Elle Potruch
I think that the digital entertainment industry and the traditional entertainment industry are ah running at two different speeds. I think that when it comes to my traditional clients, and when I say traditional, I mean like traditional TV, film, movies, commercial work, traditional actors.

26:09.63
Elle Potruch
that work is all the work that I do there that is you know on my day-to-day submitting people to projects on different casting sites and pitching them to casting directors and a lot I would say 99% of that work is outbound is pitching and trying to to convince.

26:29.28
Julie Sowash
Okay.

26:30.39
Elle Potruch
I think in the world of the digital space the

26:39.18
Elle Potruch
I think in the world of the digital entertainment industry, when it comes to the you know creator economy and online advertising, when it comes to working with like creators and influencers, is you know there's so many more brands out there who are excited about inclusivity and who see the very obvious numbers and very obvious online community that exists for these creators and the community that they've built and see the value there. i And they're able to work much faster to implement those

27:21.83
Elle Potruch
strategies in advertising much faster than the traditional entertainment industry. And that is because I think that the pipeline for getting somewhere where you can, or no, um I think that when it comes to digital advertising, we don't necessarily always need to be you know, if we're selling mascara and we're selling, you know, sorry, I'm trying to think of the right exactly exactly the right way to describe this.

28:03.08
Elle Potruch
oh If the campaign doesn't have anything to do with disability, you can hire anyone. And this is the same for the traditional entertainment industry as well. This is like the narrative we're trying to push is that you can hire pretty much anyone for any job, as long as they fit the specs that you're trying to fill.

28:21.73
Julie Sowash
Mm hmm.

28:21.98
Elle Potruch
So if you're looking to hire a beauty creator with 100,000 followers on Instagram who has a great engaged audience with a certain percentage engagement rate, it doesn't matter if they have a disability or not, because if those are the specs you're trying to fill, plenty of people fall under that category. But if you're looking to, within the broad strokes of your campaign, have a certain amount of diversity,

28:49.48
Elle Potruch
And you're going to say, hey, if we run a campaign and it just so happens that everyone we choose is like a young white girl, that's obviously not going to look great and people are going to notice. And Gen Z is a great example of, you know, it's a great generation of people who are so ready to call out that when they see it and hold brands accountable. And I think it's it's much easier to affect change on that granular level with like brands directly because we have so much more of like a ah pipeline to communicate them like with social media rather than with these like huge production companies and like huge studios.

29:29.15
Elle Potruch
And then when it comes to like the studio side for TV and film, you know, I'm of the opinion that anyone can play any role unless it's sort of like out of the realm of possibility.

29:41.03
Julie Sowash
right

29:41.04
Elle Potruch
Like if you're looking for, you know, super agent bad guy who's like chasing

29:48.45
juliesowash
Mm hmm.

29:48.99
Elle Potruch
people through the woods and the wilderness and like swimming through, you know, the Amazon, you know, the running through the Amazon rainforest and cutting down trees and swimming through the ocean and jumping in and out of boats.

30:01.14
Elle Potruch
Maybe you're not going to hire a real user. Just for the sake of.

30:04.70
Julie Sowash
Yeah. You're going to hire like five guys. Like there's just a few guys that actually do that.

30:07.86
Elle Potruch
Yeah.

30:09.03
Julie Sowash
Yes. Yeah.

30:10.09
Elle Potruch
Yeah, like. If you're looking to hire a Mission Impossible guy, it's unlikely the person who fits those specs is going to be someone who's a member of the disabled community in ah in a physical manner.

30:24.70
Julie Sowash
Right.

30:25.51
Elle Potruch
But I think that when it comes to other things, like disabled people could be lawyers. like me There was a guy who was in an iron lung for most of his life that graduated law school.

30:31.55
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

30:38.04
Elle Potruch
like Anyone could do it. um I'm not saying anyone can be a lawyer. Not everyone can be a lawyer. It's a very difficult job. But I think that we are slowly but surely able to start affecting change and able to start expanding what people think about when they think about the characters that they're looking to cast. And I've had a couple great experiences in which my clients have been hired for something and

31:10.32
Elle Potruch
at the end of the day, you know, the producer comes back to me and they're like, hey, you know, we had a totally different idea for the character when we wrote her, but then we ended up hiring your, your client and we did the shoot and they're like, and we had like such a great time. Like they're like, and it really like expanded our worldview and like really made us be creative and, you know, think about how, you know, her identity, uh, affected the story and,

31:39.77
Elle Potruch
how our identity affected like you know the character and and the intentions in the scene. And they're like, and it was really great. It was just a wonderful experience. And I was like, that that little bit is something that those people who worked in that production will then take to the next thing that they do.

31:56.60
Julie Sowash
100%.

31:56.90
Elle Potruch
And so I i think that like it is a lot slower of a process, especially because there are so many barriers when it comes to working in the entertainment industry.

32:07.57
Elle Potruch
um And I think that there's been so much great movement when it comes to people rallying about telling underrepresented people stories in the past couple of years. There's been like a huge rallying cry behind it. um And I think that more people who are getting in positions of power are slowly bringing up more people with them. you know The best part about

32:38.59
Elle Potruch
uplifting one person is that they have the ability to then bring someone else with them and then bring a new generation of people up with them. So I think where from where I'm sitting right now is I can see that like people who are in like my class and I say class like not like caste system class like my like my graduating class like my my category my age category you know people within the disability community who are in my area are like, you know, we're no longer assistants.

33:12.62
Elle Potruch
We're like moving up that pipeline of being able to like start having opinions that matter and start getting to affect change in that way and start having a seat at the table and get invited into spaces where we're able to like share those thoughts and feelings and affect change.

33:19.54
Julie Sowash
Yeah.

33:32.97
Elle Potruch
and And I think that, Um, you know, the important, you know, a huge thing that we always try to say is, you know, nothing about us without us. And I think that, uh, a huge part of the, I feel like I'm just sort of going that tangent.

33:50.77
Elle Potruch
Um, but I feel like, great.

33:51.72
Julie Sowash
tangent away.

33:53.60
Elle Potruch
Um, I feel like a really big part of telling, uh, getting more to see what people roles and projects is.

34:06.85
Elle Potruch
Obviously a huge part of that is getting more disabled writers and directors the opportunities with which to do so. That's why there's so many great, you know, programs with like the inevitable foundation and their, you know, cohorts and, and there's different programs with different studios. I think like Sony has like a director's program where people with disabilities to like get people plugged into the to the network to get those those to get them those opportunities so they're able to then tell our stories authentically. But I think that non-disabled people need to be more open to simply hiring a disabled writer or hiring a disabled consultant.

35:00.91
Elle Potruch
Because you know if you're someone who wants to include disabled people in your story, first of all, do it. Just do it. But do it, obviously, correctly. And that correct way is to like with the you know with the inform and and with the education of people with lived experience um and people who are not only people with lived experience, people who are experts in the field. And I think that you know You don't have to be disabled to tell, to write disabled characters, or I don't want to say no. What I mean to say is you don't have to be disabled to include disabled people.

35:45.72
Julie Sowash
Right. Yeah.

35:47.07
Elle Potruch
um

35:47.18
Julie Sowash
One thing that I, I, um, I was actually thinking about this as we were, we were, or I was prepping to, to chat with you and I've been watching welcome to Rexham. Do you know what I'm talking about?

35:59.42
Elle Potruch
I do know what it is I have not watched it.

35:59.44
Julie Sowash
The, so. One thing that I think they've done so well is tell diverse stories in a way that's like not at all token and not at all um you know inspiration porn or pity or anything like that, but just like those real lived experiences. um and It's something I've so enjoyed watching not just because I like football, but because I have appreciated how I'll say Ryan and Rob for lack of knowing who actually does the work um have have told stories and you know, LGBTQ, disability, mental health, you know, just this like huge gamut of stories. And

36:45.87
Julie Sowash
you know I don't know, it's just so thoughtful to see an organization do that out front. So you know to your point, it is you know Welcome to Rexxum is about football in Wales.

36:58.77
Julie Sowash
But somehow they figured out how to normalize, for lack of a better word, storytelling and and lived experiences around the football club.

37:01.10
Elle Potruch
Yep.

37:10.13
Julie Sowash
And that was certainly a conscious decision. I mean, that didn't just happen.

37:12.56
Elle Potruch
Yeah. No, but I think when you make stories about people from an authentic place, that's going to happen. I mean, you don't need to make your movie or your TV show about a disabled person. It'd be great if you did. We should need more leads. But you know, if you're having, if you have a big ensemble cast, let's look at the, let's look at the numbers. Let's look at the stats of disabled people.

37:43.03
Elle Potruch
than the population.

37:44.46
Julie Sowash
Mm-hm.

37:44.83
Elle Potruch
It's very likely you're gonna have someone in there. And it doesn't need to be, like, their huge, like, characterization of, like, oh, and that's Jim, the disabled guy who's in our friend group.

37:56.22
Julie Sowash
Yep.

37:57.33
Elle Potruch
Like, he's just a person who lives, like, a full rich life, happens to be an amputee. Like, yeah, there's gonna be some storyline around it, and some lived experience, some stuff we're gonna talk about.

38:11.82
Elle Potruch
But, like, I think when what I noticed when I was working at my talent agency, there was this huge big cultural shift you know in 2020, 2021 about People were really hammering at home the importance of like hiring authentically, hiring inclusively, making sure that the people from these communities were the people telling these stories. And you know I noticed a really big shift in that with people from different um ethnic backgrounds and different gender identities and sexual identities. And the big red flag that came up for me was that no one was talking about disabled people.

38:51.24
Julie Sowash
Yep.

38:51.60
Elle Potruch
when everyone was like, oh my God, inclusivity is such a problem in Hollywood. And we need to be hiring more people of different ethnic background that are identities and sexual identities. And I was like, you are correct.

39:03.64
Elle Potruch
And you are right. And, disabled people.

39:08.71
Julie Sowash
Yes.

39:09.08
Elle Potruch
And that's what really like spurned my interest in, you know, getting to work with, you know, folks like Keely and continue working in this space is that like, yes, and more.

39:19.36
Julie Sowash
Yes, yeah, no, 100%.

39:20.19
Elle Potruch
And it's not, and And I think we might have like maybe over ripened that idea a little bit to make people feel uncomfortable stepping into a space that they don't experience.

39:22.34
Julie Sowash
Okay.

39:37.19
Elle Potruch
And I think that people need to understand that it's the the barriers to getting into the disabled community and reaching us, there aren't that many.

39:48.12
Elle Potruch
there are I could probably connect people with like five or six different disability consultants who have experience in script writing and TV writing and story writing in a um new number of different niches or genres, you know, 10 minutes after this phone call. Just to say like, hey, there's people out there who are ready and willing to like help you and provide access to a community that you aren't a part of and that you one day will be. But, you know, there's,

40:20.35
Elle Potruch
so much information out there that people have put online for free to to educate you about our community, that there's really like no excuse to be like, oh, well like I was afraid of doing it wrong, so I just didn't do it.

40:33.82
Julie Sowash
Yeah, we hear that every single day, every single day.

40:36.19
Elle Potruch
Yeah, you and I think that, you know, when I mentioned the like we've over ripened it is like people got really nervous about saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, getting it wrong.

40:49.13
Elle Potruch
And I think that people became ah you know really precious about it. And I think that while, yes, there is something very important and very, you know, there's something to be said about wanting to ensure that you're doing something correctly and wanting to ensure that you're not offending people. I think that if you're just making the decision of like, oh, I'm not going to broach the subject because I don't know enough. Your next sentence after I don't know enough should be.

41:19.87
Elle Potruch
will let me go find out.

41:21.81
Julie Sowash
Yeah. And I mean, I i think as a I can say, generally speaking, we don't expect perfection. We just want to get in the door.

41:28.80
Elle Potruch
No. Yeah, especially for like, and and for me, and this is coming from my own experience, so I won't speak for anyone else, but as someone who has not lived with a disability my entire life, as someone who acquired one later in life, you know,

41:44.66
Elle Potruch
my expectations and ideologies have absolutely shifted and changed throughout things that I've personally experienced, things my friends have experienced, and the work that I've been able to do within the disabled community. I would say, you know, i it has been such an honor for me personally to be able to work with Deaf community so closely and personally because it's not a community that I am a part of, but It's such a a rich and beautiful community of people. And I had a lot of incorrect assumptions going into it when I started working with people. And I had to learn a lot. And luckily, you know I worked with clients who were very like you know happy to educate me and let me know because you know I need to be able to advocate on their behalf correctly.

42:34.99
juliesowash
Mhmm.

42:34.99
Elle Potruch
um But you know I think that a lot of people need to understand that like there's always goingnna there's always going to be someone out there who's going to be mad at you for doing something wrong.

42:42.93
Julie Sowash
Always.

42:54.23
Elle Potruch
But I would say the majority of people who aren't yelling about it ah who who aren't yelling at you about it, and that's the majority of people.

42:57.77
Julie Sowash
Mhmm.

43:02.58
Elle Potruch
It's like a Yelp review. The people who leave Yelp reviews are either people who like love the restaurant or hate the restaurant.

43:09.95
Julie Sowash
yes

43:10.62
Elle Potruch
not a lot of middling.

43:11.24
Julie Sowash
Yes.

43:12.57
Elle Potruch
So I think that it's really hard to, to change that mindset of being like, Hey, yeah, like, just, just try.

43:22.36
Julie Sowash
Yeah, this is a three star. We'll get to a four star next time.

43:27.06
Elle Potruch
Yeah. And I think that, and that is a really big part of it because I think that people you know, a lot of people like you expect perfection. And I think there's also, and you know, I lauded you know Gen Z earlier for being one of the, you know, a great generation of folks who will always call out things and they don't think that it's inclusive enough or or sustainable enough or what have you. I think that some of the expectations that have been set are a little too high, like especially

44:04.26
Elle Potruch
Like I went to a beauty conference earlier this year and there were had a whole conversation and panel about accessibility and beauty and which was incredible to have. um And one of the the questions someone asked to someone on the panel was like, you know, when it comes to making accessible packaging for beauty, how can we also make sure that it's like the most sustainable option in terms of like the packaging or plastic or whatever. And the head of this beauty brand who makes accessible beauty products was saying like, hey, listen, like is the stuff that I'm using like the most sustainable environmental version of this? No, because this was round one.

44:59.40
Elle Potruch
And I was focused on making it the most accessible possible. But when we have round two, now that we've like raised money and this we're a bigger company, and then in round two, we can focus on ensuring that it's not only accessible, but it's also sustainable. And so I think that people need to like give these smaller brands a little bit more leeway and say, like hey, listen, you can't expect a brand-new startup beauty brand, as it were, to come out with perfectly accessible packaging right off the bat, perfectly eco-friendly sustainable packaging that is reduced reusable, totally eco-friendly compostable packaging right off the bat. Can't make sure that you know they're using a having

45:50.98
Elle Potruch
Yes, they should have a wide shade range, but like every single shade range right off the bat, these things cost money and these things cost, I think these things take time. Obviously I think there should be caveats to that. So I'm not going to say that's like a hard and fast rule, but I think that people are, are slowly coming around to like, Hey, I think we might've overcorrected a little bit here and we need to be a little bit more like just a lot of people are trying.

46:17.88
Julie Sowash
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. we I would say that all the time is like, hey, you're gonna muck it up. Just do better next time or take the next evolution or learn the next thing. So this has been such and and a fascinating conversation. I feel like I've learned so much today about the industry, a lot of really good things. Actually that makes me very excited. um So we always end on two questions. um The first one is what is one thing you would want a decision maker?

46:48.20
Julie Sowash
in the entertainment industry um to know that would change their mind about what talent with disabilities can bring to their production.

46:58.19
Elle Potruch
Yeah, I think that something that I would want the decision maker to know is that there are so many incredibly talented disabled people out there that are excited and ready and willing to work and bring flavor and character to your project that just are ready and out there and excited to work and just need a chance and maybe If you're looking for someone who has a million credits to be in your project, who's also someone who's disabled, I think you need to adjust your worldview and understand that historically, the disabled representation in TV film over the past however many years has been slim.

47:50.62
Elle Potruch
And there has been very few opportunities with disabilities. So I think that there needs to be a level of understanding of like, hey, there hasn't been as many opportunities for this type of actor and this person. So maybe we just, we find the right fit and they're, they're not someone who's ever led a TV show before or been a lead in a movie before, but like they can make it work. You do that with plenty of other people.

48:23.64
Elle Potruch
Bless you.

48:27.03
Julie Sowash
We both got one in this podcast. ah Thank you. And what is one thing that someone has done for you that's helped change your life?

48:36.73
Elle Potruch
That's a big question. I think um one of the most interesting things, I would say one of the most transformative things that I've had the pleasure of experiencing was, you know, when I started working at Sea Talent, you know, I had my identity as a disabled person, and I didn't understand disability pride when I was working at Sea Talent. I am not entirely sure that I knew it existed at the time, to be totally honest. And I think, um you know, I come from a very medical background. My parents are medical professionals. I grew up

49:19.43
Elle Potruch
in a lot of medical offices, seeing doctors all the time. And i am a lot of my ex experience with disability was you know wrapped up in diagnoses and seeking out answers you know from a medical perspective. And so when I heard about disability pride, I was like, what ah why am I proud about what I have to be proud about? and What am I going to be proud that I have a genetic disease? Like, cool. like ah And then when I had the the opportunity, um and I can't thank Keely enough for this, she did so, she really ensured that all the people that were working at Sea Talent were really educated on disability history. but As we continue to work in representing disabled people, you know, we did a lot of learning as well as people. um You know, when I learned about

50:19.55
Elle Potruch
Judy human, when I learned about the first disability pride, when I learned about the passing of the ADA, when I learned about our rich culture and history is when I really understood what disability pride meant. And that was a really big turning point for me because I was able to, you know, shift my mindset into being like, well, why am I proud of having a diagnosis?

50:47.19
Elle Potruch
Like, yeah, it took me a while to get here, and I'm really proud that I got that, um because it took a minute. But what is there to be proud about? And then learning about the incredible people who had come before me that have afforded me the ability to even have this as a job that really enriched my life, because it gave me so much more to be fighting for. It's not just about getting my clients the ability to be in a Maybelline campaign, or getting my clients the ability to be on Grey's Anatomy, or getting my clients the ability to be in a movie. It is so much more than that. And that is what really, I think, changed my perspective as a manager and and really

51:41.49
Elle Potruch
gave me that push to want to continue doing this for as long as I can.

51:51.72
Elle Potruch
And you froze for me and I'm hopeful that I didn't freeze for you. Of course.

52:23.28
Julie Sowash
having some minor connectivity issues, we're almost done. Yeah, we're, ah we're almost done. So sorry.

52:30.35
Elle Potruch
Hey, where did it cut me off?

52:31.21
Julie Sowash
Okay. So no, I think that i I, I think where I can cut it is perfect. Like you were just talking about that sense of pride and that swell.

52:41.81
Julie Sowash
So just kind of finish up, like it gave you this overwhelming sense of pride, not just to get your clients jobs, but go from there.

52:50.75
Elle Potruch
Got it, okay. I think the last bit I was saying is that like it's at the end of the day, it wasn't learning all that, it's not just about like getting my client in a Maybelline campaign or getting my client a TB role in Grey's Anatomy or getting my client in a movie.

53:12.01
Elle Potruch
It's about so much more than that. And that's what really like pushes me to do this job every day and show up and fight. And I love the fight. And I think that if I didn't love the fight, I wouldn't be able to do this job. um Because it's it's not easy to to represent people and and fight and argue and um professionally.

53:37.45
Elle Potruch
um and and constantly be be hit up against, oh, thank you so much for inviting so-and-so to one of that. Fortunately, your location's inaccessible so they can't come. Or, you know, all these different things that, you know, there's a lot of disappointments that you bump up against when working anything related to disability justice and advocacy. um But I think that Having the background of education and information about how we got here and who helped me get here has been really transformative.

54:21.20
Julie Sowash
It is, it is, it is. So thank you, El Petruch. So if those aspiring creators, actors, or EPs that want to start casting talent with disabilities want to get ahold of you, how do they find you?

54:34.67
Elle Potruch
You can find me on LinkedIn or you can, yeah, the best way to get in contact with me is through LinkedIn. Yeah, I would recommend that.

54:46.77
Julie Sowash
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. i Again, I've learned so much and I just love your takes. So thank you guys for joining another episode of Changing Minds, Changing Lives. Catch some of our prior episodes here from some of the amazing guests that we've had on Outside of Elle. And we'll catch you next time. Thanks.