CMCL Interview: Holly O'Hern

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Welcome back to the Changing Minds

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Changing Lives podcast.

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My name is Julie Sowash,

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I am the Executive Director

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of Disability Solutions,

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and I am so thankful

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that you all have joined me again today.

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For an interview

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I've tried

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I've been trying

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to get on the calendar

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for what feels like six months.

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Hopefully it wasn't that long,

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but it's been a very long time.

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So again,

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if you're new to our series,

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this is really interviewing

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the best

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and the brightest in DEI, diversity and 

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inclusion, and members of our community

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who are doing amazing work.

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If you have not checked out

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some of our previous episodes, I'm

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hearing a couple of fan favorites

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are Calum Grevers

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who just came out

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a couple weeks ago from Edinburgh,

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and Kyle Peterson from Colorado,

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who is an amazing young activists.

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I encourage you to listen

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to both of those and any other episodes

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that catch your eye.

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We've had some incredible guests

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over the last six months

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and today is no different.

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I am super honored, to welcome

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Holly O'Hern, founder of Regime Change,

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to the episode today, to Changing Minds,

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Changing Lives.

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Holly is a seasoned people leader,

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a former ERG and BRG leader and sponsor,

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founder of an organization

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wide grief network,

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which I think is incredible work,

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and a twice

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founder of DEI based communities.

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Her leadership

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style creates open discussions on topics

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such as mental health,

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belonging, dynamics

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related to power and privilege,

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as well as the importance

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of intergenerational relationships

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in our workplace.

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Holly, welcome to Changing

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Minds, Changing Lives.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm really glad to be here.

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I've been looking forward to it as well.

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Thank you so much for being patient

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with our team

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while we okay me while we got scheduled.

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So give me give me your

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couple minute introduction.

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Holly is a person.

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Holly is a business leader.

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And a little bit

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more about Regime Change.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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My pronouns are she, her, hers.

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I'm based in Chicago, Illinois,

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and I've been practicing

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my visual introduction,

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so I'll include that as well,

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too, for people

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who are observing the video.

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I am a white woman,

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a Caucasian woman with long red hair.

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I'm wearing sort of like a light

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gray pattern shirt with ruffles.

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And then I have an office

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background behind me

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that has plants and books, and,

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the plants are real.

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I've gotten that question before.

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I've,

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not been a green thumb my whole life,

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but I did finally figure it out

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during the pandemic,

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and I'm thrilled to have

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thriving plants in my home

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for the first time in my whole life.

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I, yeah, I so I work for myself.

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I'm what the trendy term is.

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I'm a solo-preneur.

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I'm a one

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woman show here in Chicago,

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and my business is called Regime Change.

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And,

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it started as a side hustle

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while I was in corporate America.

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I spent 19 years in corporate America,

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and the last couple of years

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I was doing workshops also on the side.

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And then about a year and a half ago,

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I made the move to full time

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work for myself.

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Under under the.

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Yeah, the LLC of Regime Change.

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And,

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I'll tell you a little bit

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about what

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I was doing in corporate America

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and then I'll tell you a bit more about,

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my business.

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So I spent that 19 years in corporate

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America was over a variety of

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industries, company sizes.

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Really many kinds of

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dynamics, restaurants

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to tech, to airlines

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to just a whole variety of things,

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small bag, etc.

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and the sort of the umbrella of that was

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I was in learning and development.

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And DEI focused roles throughout.

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Certainly the term

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DEI wasn't as present in the earlier days,

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but just as an example, like,

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I used to run a management

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training program in the restaurant world

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15 years ago where we had a diversity

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and inclusion class in it. Right.

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So, and I

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and I taught that

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for part of the time as well

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and learned a lot during that time.

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That has served me later.

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But yeah, learning and development,

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I, I sort of identify as like a trainer.

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But also facilitation

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is just as important

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a board to me as training is.

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And, learning, I love, I love to learn,

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I love to help other people learn, etc..

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So yeah,

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that's that's how, I got my roots and,

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I would say,

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I'd say everywhere I worked was helpful.

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But most specifically,

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the last company I worked

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at was a tiny startup that was DEI,

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technology focused.

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They're called Mathison.

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They were just absorbed

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by a bigger company.

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And,

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I was head of their DEI

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training for their clients,

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and it was really a diverse company

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in all senses of, of of the term diverse,

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which I really like to think

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about what diverse means

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in many spectrums, etc..

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And, it was all virtual,

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which was cool to be part of.

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And, I learned a lot there.

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As much as I was able to help anyone else

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learn as a learning person, I.

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I always notice when I'm learning too.

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And that was one of those environments.

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And I think

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that was really the final place of like,

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yeah, I love certain work so much.

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I really want to be doing this full time.

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And, and, you know, just like have have

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the freedom of working for yourself

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where you can choose more

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and more of what you're doing.

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So, I called the company Regime change

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because I feel like the clients

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who are attracted to me, though

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they're all very diverse

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as well, in many different ways.

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They all want to be the change

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that they want to see in workplaces

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and related to leadership.

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So to me,

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we're the collective

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regime change together

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is we're all trying to shift

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how leadership could be in the future.

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And there's skill

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sets that go along with that.

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And some of them are

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Dei related,

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some of them are emotionally related.

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Some of them are about mental

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health and wellness.

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There's a

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there's lots of things

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that could go under that umbrella.

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I mean,

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I think of it all as courageous

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leadership skills.

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It's also

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what brought me to the work of Doctor

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Brené Brown.

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I'm certified in her

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Dare to Lead

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training program,

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and I studied under her in March 2019.

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And have done some projects with

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her team since and,

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yeah, I think courage skills

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are underpin a lot of what I do,

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whether it's dare to lead or not,

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dare lead or DEI or not

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DEI, like

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even giving a presentation

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requires courage, right?

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So there's so many opportunities

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for any of us

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to build our courage skills.

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And,

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I guess I'd just say especially in DEI,

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I think it's what's often

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lacking is

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people

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aren't sure how to handle something

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that feels uncomfortable.

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But uncomfortable is really important

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for what we need to do

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to be more of supporters

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and allies to each other,

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to be to create change.

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And all of that stuff requires the skills

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to sit with discomfort.

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And, that's courageous to me.

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So, probably lots more

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I could have said,

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but that's a good start.

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And, yeah.

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Happy to answer any other questions

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that you're curious about, too.

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So I will go.

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First of all,

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you do not look like

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you could have 20 years of experience.

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Amazing.

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I was thinking maybe five, maybe five.

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I get a lot.

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So you're doing something right there.

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So.

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No, I think it's

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just it's so exciting

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because you have a

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breadth of experience, right?

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It's not just big corporate,

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you know, big enterprise work.

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It's not just startup.

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It's not just tech.

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It's really

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sort of that gamut of your experience

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allows you to meet companies

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where they are.

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And so tell me a little bit.

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So I heard facilitator I heard trainer,

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if I'm working with you

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as a, as a leader,

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what do you come in and do like kind of

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give me some specifics

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about how you help us

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with what I would call greater humanity

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you call courage leadership.

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I love that statement. It's such,

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it's a challenge, right?

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It is it it creates that.

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It's not empathy.

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It's not pity. It's not this. It's it's.

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We're challenging you

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to be a more courageous leader,

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I love that, yeah.

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I mean, I primarily do it

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through workshops.

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I have done, you know, consulting.

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I have done coaching.

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I do that in little pieces,

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but I do the bulk of my work

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is workshops at the moment. Anyway.

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And so usually, you know,

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I first of all, I sort of vet

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the needs that people have

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and sort of suggest which of my workshops

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I think could do that best.

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But then also I talk a lot about them,

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about what will happen before

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and what will happen after the workshops.

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And I really

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my goal is to work

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with companies

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that understand

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that training and workshops are not a

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one size fits all solution.

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They're not a Band-Aid.

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They're they're not a one and done right.

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Like they're not like, cool.

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We did that on the checklist

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and we're done

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is it's

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really a waste of everyone's time.

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If you're not planning to embed it

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in some way.

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The people who see the most success

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with me do multiple workshops with me.

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Like we'll plan out a series

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and then I'll give them things

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to do in between that they can embed

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into their team meeting cultures

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or into their one on one templates, etc..

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And, you know, then

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we go from there, I would say,

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yeah, it's me.

00:08:58:16 - 00:09:00:23
It's a lot of,

00:09:00:23 - 00:09:02:13
you know, where where is courage

00:09:02:13 - 00:09:03:13
needed in whatever

00:09:03:13 - 00:09:04:20
their initial request is.

00:09:04:20 - 00:09:05:29
So someone might just say like, oh,

00:09:05:29 - 00:09:07:23
we need a Dei training or we, we,

00:09:07:23 - 00:09:09:02
we really want to do Brené Brown

00:09:09:02 - 00:09:11:02
Dare to Lead know we really want to do,

00:09:11:02 - 00:09:13:10
I just did some workshops about grief.

00:09:13:10 - 00:09:14:22
And so I've been getting more requests

00:09:14:22 - 00:09:15:24
about those lately.

00:09:15:24 - 00:09:16:29
I plan to do more on

00:09:16:29 - 00:09:18:04
intergenerational things

00:09:18:04 - 00:09:19:24
so people will kind of come to me

00:09:19:24 - 00:09:20:08
with the idea

00:09:20:08 - 00:09:21:06
of what they think they need.

00:09:21:06 - 00:09:23:02
But then I'll I'll do a lot of digging

00:09:23:02 - 00:09:24:18
in the process of us

00:09:24:18 - 00:09:26:19
deciding if we want to work together of,

00:09:26:19 - 00:09:27:26
you know,

00:09:27:26 - 00:09:29:25
you know, what's stopping you, right?

00:09:29:25 - 00:09:30:13
Like what?

00:09:30:13 - 00:09:31:22
Like what are the barriers

00:09:31:22 - 00:09:32:24
we need to talk about?

00:09:32:24 - 00:09:33:09
Like,

00:09:33:09 - 00:09:33:22
what are

00:09:33:22 - 00:09:35:05
what are the collective

00:09:35:05 - 00:09:36:08
elephants in the room

00:09:36:08 - 00:09:37:18
that we need to have in our mind?

00:09:37:18 - 00:09:39:00
And I'll even ask about things

00:09:39:00 - 00:09:40:06
that might seem unrelated

00:09:40:06 - 00:09:41:17
to the training to them,

00:09:41:17 - 00:09:44:15
just so I can bring in my full range

00:09:44:15 - 00:09:45:20
of empathy skills

00:09:45:20 - 00:09:46:17
and like where I have

00:09:46:17 - 00:09:47:25
direct conversations

00:09:47:25 - 00:09:49:10
go and how I touch on something

00:09:49:10 - 00:09:51:17
that as an as a quote unquote outsider,

00:09:51:17 - 00:09:53:06
I might be able to say differently

00:09:53:06 - 00:09:54:25
than someone internally could,

00:09:54:25 - 00:09:57:27
and then really just try to make spaces

00:09:57:27 - 00:10:00:00
as psychologically safe as possible

00:10:00:00 - 00:10:01:20
so that people can rise up

00:10:01:20 - 00:10:02:19
with their own brilliance

00:10:02:19 - 00:10:05:02
or their own issues or blockades, etc.

00:10:05:02 - 00:10:08:02
to, and I will add a caveat, is

00:10:08:03 - 00:10:09:14
I on purpose,

00:10:09:14 - 00:10:12:03
is psychologically safe as possible

00:10:12:03 - 00:10:13:21
because we can never guarantee

00:10:13:21 - 00:10:16:02
someone else's psychological safety.

00:10:16:02 - 00:10:16:08
Like,

00:10:16:08 - 00:10:18:09
I can't proclaim this as a safe space

00:10:18:09 - 00:10:20:20
because I don't know what's safe for you.

00:10:20:20 - 00:10:22:29
But I do try really hard to design

00:10:22:29 - 00:10:23:10
in a way

00:10:23:10 - 00:10:25:13
that should be as safe as possible,

00:10:25:13 - 00:10:27:07
including the questions that I ask.

00:10:27:07 - 00:10:28:21
Like, I'll give you an example,

00:10:30:04 - 00:10:31:04
if I want people to

00:10:31:04 - 00:10:31:27
share where they're

00:10:31:27 - 00:10:34:07
struggling with something, I might say,

00:10:34:07 - 00:10:35:20
hey, what is a way

00:10:35:20 - 00:10:37:00
some people might struggle

00:10:37:00 - 00:10:38:10
with this topic?

00:10:38:10 - 00:10:39:15
So that way people can,

00:10:39:15 - 00:10:41:21
can, can name the issues without,

00:10:41:21 - 00:10:42:27
you know, especially early on

00:10:42:27 - 00:10:43:24
when they don't know me yet

00:10:43:24 - 00:10:45:15
or I don't know what other dynamics

00:10:45:15 - 00:10:47:25
are in the room, etc., by the room.

00:10:47:25 - 00:10:48:29
It could be in person

00:10:48:29 - 00:10:49:24
or it could be virtual.

00:10:49:24 - 00:10:51:14
I like both formats very much.

00:10:51:14 - 00:10:53:16
So yeah, it's just like things like that

00:10:53:16 - 00:10:56:02
I really take time to think about

00:10:56:02 - 00:10:58:14
without knowing what threats

00:10:58:14 - 00:11:01:15
or challenges might be.

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:02:11
In some spaces

00:11:02:11 - 00:11:03:16
that haven't been raised to me,

00:11:03:16 - 00:11:05:12
I can still design in a way

00:11:05:12 - 00:11:07:17
that, is at least,

00:11:07:17 - 00:11:10:01
you know, as safe as possible.

00:11:10:01 - 00:11:10:11
Yeah.

00:11:10:11 - 00:11:11:27
And that actually, yeah,

00:11:11:27 - 00:11:13:12
that was like as soon as you started

00:11:13:12 - 00:11:14:15
talking about that, I saw it.

00:11:14:15 - 00:11:18:01
How do you manage to create a space

00:11:18:01 - 00:11:21:04
that is as inclusive as possible,

00:11:21:20 - 00:11:23:08
but still allows people

00:11:23:08 - 00:11:26:15
to interact and engage where they are?

00:11:26:15 - 00:11:27:24
I feel like something

00:11:27:24 - 00:11:28:18
we've been talking a

00:11:28:18 - 00:11:30:12
lot about over the past.

00:11:31:12 - 00:11:32:27
I don't know, I will say six months.

00:11:32:27 - 00:11:35:07
Is that

00:11:35:07 - 00:11:37:03
and I've been very guilty of this.

00:11:37:03 - 00:11:38:15
As DEI leaders

00:11:38:15 - 00:11:41:15
and members of communities, we've

00:11:41:27 - 00:11:44:27
sometimes pushed conversations out

00:11:45:04 - 00:11:48:07
because we don't want to hear people

00:11:48:07 - 00:11:49:00
where they are,

00:11:49:00 - 00:11:52:15
and we get very quickly to, blame and,

00:11:52:15 - 00:11:53:04
and a,

00:11:53:04 - 00:11:56:12
I hate the word cancel,

00:11:56:12 - 00:11:58:00
but a cancel place,

00:11:58:00 - 00:12:01:16
because we're, we're not capable yet

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:04:09
of having those conversations,

00:12:04:09 - 00:12:06:27
and it grows out of such frustration

00:12:06:27 - 00:12:09:24
that we see progress come and go

00:12:09:24 - 00:12:10:23
where we see ourselves

00:12:10:23 - 00:12:11:19
never thought of,

00:12:11:19 - 00:12:13:02
or we see that power structure

00:12:13:02 - 00:12:15:18
not changing quickly enough

00:12:15:18 - 00:12:17:11
that instead of meeting each other

00:12:17:11 - 00:12:19:15
where we are and creating that space,

00:12:19:15 - 00:12:22:16
we just stop talking to each other.

00:12:24:08 - 00:12:25:19
Yeah, I,

00:12:25:19 - 00:12:27:23
I have a lot I want to say to that.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:31:00
I'm going to I'm going to focus myself.

00:12:31:00 - 00:12:32:24
But this is exactly why you're going

00:12:32:24 - 00:12:33:13
to be talking.

00:12:33:13 - 00:12:35:09
Is there a lot of things

00:12:35:09 - 00:12:36:13
you just said that I love?

00:12:36:13 - 00:12:39:05
I think it's also

00:12:40:10 - 00:12:41:22
our own.

00:12:41:22 - 00:12:43:03
Like, where we're at.

00:12:43:03 - 00:12:44:14
Of what

00:12:44:14 - 00:12:45:14
we're not ready to deal

00:12:45:14 - 00:12:48:03
with ourselves, too.

00:12:48:03 - 00:12:48:21
And I think, like,

00:12:48:21 - 00:12:49:13
power and privilege

00:12:49:13 - 00:12:50:18
has a lot to do with that.

00:12:50:18 - 00:12:51:10
Like,

00:12:51:10 - 00:12:52:22
it's,

00:12:52:22 - 00:12:53:01
you know,

00:12:53:01 - 00:12:55:22
I think a lot about the education,

00:12:55:22 - 00:12:57:23
the emotional labor people have given me

00:12:57:23 - 00:12:58:08
as someone

00:12:58:08 - 00:13:00:06
in the Dei space with a lot of power

00:13:00:06 - 00:13:02:01
and privilege given to me by society.

00:13:02:01 - 00:13:02:11
Right.

00:13:02:11 - 00:13:05:11
And there are times where intellectually,

00:13:05:15 - 00:13:08:02
I might want someone to call me in

00:13:08:02 - 00:13:09:23
when I'm being obtuse about something,

00:13:09:23 - 00:13:11:08
or I'm being harmful about something,

00:13:11:08 - 00:13:12:29
and I don't realize it. Right.

00:13:12:29 - 00:13:15:19
But that doesn't mean that my body isn't

00:13:15:19 - 00:13:19:03
still going to be like,

00:13:20:12 - 00:13:22:06
on edge when it happens, right?

00:13:22:06 - 00:13:22:26
Like,

00:13:22:26 - 00:13:24:09
you know, if someone says like,

00:13:24:09 - 00:13:25:12
hey, I don't know if you realize this,

00:13:25:12 - 00:13:26:17
but the term you just used

00:13:26:17 - 00:13:27:27
is not the most inclusive thing

00:13:27:27 - 00:13:29:23
and actually can cause harm

00:13:29:23 - 00:13:30:14
intellectually

00:13:30:14 - 00:13:31:28
I want people to do that,

00:13:31:28 - 00:13:33:19
but also the threat response

00:13:33:19 - 00:13:34:14
my brain is going to be like,

00:13:34:14 - 00:13:35:27
oh no, do they not like me?

00:13:35:27 - 00:13:37:07
Do they not think I'm a good Dei

00:13:37:07 - 00:13:38:19
person? Will I not get  business

00:13:38:19 - 00:13:39:19
anymore after that? Right.

00:13:39:19 - 00:13:41:13
So that's the that's

00:13:41:13 - 00:13:43:07
the human experience that all of us have

00:13:43:07 - 00:13:45:13
our own versions we're dealing with of.

00:13:45:13 - 00:13:47:03
Yeah, we may say we want to be part

00:13:47:03 - 00:13:48:29
of certain spaces or do certain work,

00:13:48:29 - 00:13:50:23
but when those really important

00:13:50:23 - 00:13:52:10
moments happen, our brains

00:13:52:10 - 00:13:54:04
don't always help us.

00:13:54:04 - 00:13:57:04
And so just navigating that, I think

00:13:57:09 - 00:13:58:11
not only then can it be

00:13:58:11 - 00:13:59:08
hard to meet other people

00:13:59:08 - 00:13:59:23
where they're at,

00:13:59:23 - 00:14:01:08
but we don't even always acknowledge

00:14:01:08 - 00:14:03:02
where we're at with certain things.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:05:11
So it's it's pretty complex

00:14:05:11 - 00:14:07:10
and maybe it gives us empathy why

00:14:07:10 - 00:14:08:29
we haven't seen all the progress yet

00:14:08:29 - 00:14:09:25
that we'd like to.

00:14:09:25 - 00:14:11:14
Because being human

00:14:11:14 - 00:14:13:10
is is a tough thing, right?

00:14:14:09 - 00:14:16:12
I certainly have not mastered it yet.

00:14:16:12 - 00:14:19:13
And one thing that we talked about

00:14:19:29 - 00:14:20:28
that you do that

00:14:20:28 - 00:14:23:09
I was really thankful for,

00:14:23:09 - 00:14:24:26
during your training

00:14:24:26 - 00:14:26:06
and not just thankful

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:27:06
that impressed by

00:14:27:06 - 00:14:28:29
is that when you are creating

00:14:28:29 - 00:14:30:15
these spaces,

00:14:30:15 - 00:14:31:22
you're also creating them

00:14:31:22 - 00:14:34:07
so that they are physically accessible

00:14:34:07 - 00:14:34:26
to people

00:14:34:26 - 00:14:37:08
who have certain types of disabilities.

00:14:37:08 - 00:14:40:13
Tell me how that became

00:14:40:23 - 00:14:41:28
a thought in your head

00:14:41:28 - 00:14:43:04
because so many leaders,

00:14:43:04 - 00:14:44:12
it is

00:14:44:12 - 00:14:45:19
not a thought in their head

00:14:45:19 - 00:14:46:12
until they get

00:14:46:12 - 00:14:47:25
that accommodation request,

00:14:47:25 - 00:14:49:09
they don't build universally,

00:14:49:09 - 00:14:50:00
they don't build

00:14:50:00 - 00:14:51:24
inclusively out of the gate.

00:14:51:24 - 00:14:52:18
And one thing

00:14:52:18 - 00:14:53:25
that we're always talking to

00:14:53:25 - 00:14:54:13
leaders is

00:14:54:13 - 00:14:57:27
how do you put disability, diversity

00:14:58:23 - 00:15:00:10
at the front proactive

00:15:00:10 - 00:15:01:09
instead of reactive?

00:15:01:09 - 00:15:03:13
Because reactive spaces

00:15:03:13 - 00:15:05:04
or when you have a reactive space,

00:15:05:04 - 00:15:07:08
it doesn't feel as safe.

00:15:07:08 - 00:15:08:24
If I'm not even thought of in

00:15:08:24 - 00:15:09:14
in a design,

00:15:09:14 - 00:15:10:01
if I have

00:15:10:01 - 00:15:11:12
certain type of disability

00:15:11:12 - 00:15:13:25
or a certain type of of lived experience.

00:15:13:25 - 00:15:14:08
Talk to me

00:15:14:08 - 00:15:16:16
about how you came to that place.

00:15:16:16 - 00:15:17:08
Yeah.

00:15:17:08 - 00:15:19:11
And I'll say, though

00:15:19:11 - 00:15:20:14
there's a lot I'm proud of,

00:15:20:14 - 00:15:21:26
I'm not perfect,

00:15:21:26 - 00:15:23:04
and there's still lots of spaces

00:15:23:04 - 00:15:24:10
for me to grow, by the way.

00:15:24:10 - 00:15:27:00
But, you know, accessibility

00:15:27:00 - 00:15:28:20
is deeply important to me

00:15:28:20 - 00:15:30:11
when it comes to training environments.

00:15:30:11 - 00:15:31:11
And I would say both,

00:15:31:11 - 00:15:33:12
both in person and virtually.

00:15:33:12 - 00:15:37:01
And some of it definitely

00:15:37:01 - 00:15:40:16
has come to me through participants

00:15:40:16 - 00:15:41:23
sharing the accommodations

00:15:41:23 - 00:15:43:28
they've needed throughout the years.

00:15:43:28 - 00:15:46:05
But what I've noticed is,

00:15:46:05 - 00:15:46:21
it's it's

00:15:46:21 - 00:15:47:13
sort of gotten

00:15:47:13 - 00:15:48:23
me really excited and lit up

00:15:48:23 - 00:15:49:24
every time it happens

00:15:49:24 - 00:15:51:26
because it gets me thinking about

00:15:51:26 - 00:15:52:27
so many other things

00:15:52:27 - 00:15:54:17
that hadn't occurred to me

00:15:54:17 - 00:15:56:15
and what I've learned.

00:15:56:15 - 00:15:57:17
I'll give you some examples.

00:15:57:17 - 00:15:58:12
What I've learned

00:15:58:12 - 00:16:00:04
is when you make

00:16:00:04 - 00:16:02:06
something more accessible for one person,

00:16:02:06 - 00:16:03:08
it usually ends up

00:16:03:08 - 00:16:03:26
helping

00:16:03:26 - 00:16:04:29
many other people

00:16:04:29 - 00:16:07:10
that you wouldn't even have known about.

00:16:07:10 - 00:16:09:05
So accessibility is good for everyone

00:16:09:05 - 00:16:09:19
is something

00:16:09:19 - 00:16:11:01
I've learned about too from this.

00:16:11:01 - 00:16:12:22
So I'll give an example.

00:16:12:22 - 00:16:16:13
Let's say I'm

00:16:16:13 - 00:16:19:14
an in person training, and I,

00:16:20:28 - 00:16:21:24
know that one of my

00:16:21:24 - 00:16:24:06
audience members is a person who is blind

00:16:24:06 - 00:16:25:22
or has low vision

00:16:25:22 - 00:16:27:11
or limited vision, etc..

00:16:27:11 - 00:16:28:12
And by the way, if at any point

00:16:28:12 - 00:16:29:27
I use a term today that, you know,

00:16:29:27 - 00:16:31:21
a more inclusive term, Julie, please,

00:16:31:21 - 00:16:33:11
please feel free to have come in

00:16:33:11 - 00:16:33:29
real time.

00:16:33:29 - 00:16:35:06
I welcome it

00:16:35:06 - 00:16:37:19
because though I've done a lot of work

00:16:37:19 - 00:16:38:28
on inclusive terms,

00:16:38:28 - 00:16:40:12
especially for people with disabilities,

00:16:40:12 - 00:16:41:07
I'm sure there's something

00:16:41:07 - 00:16:42:02
I don't know about.

00:16:42:02 - 00:16:43:15
So I just wanted to make sure

00:16:43:15 - 00:16:43:28
I said that.

00:16:43:28 - 00:16:45:04
But like, let's say

00:16:45:04 - 00:16:46:08
I had someone in my audience,

00:16:46:08 - 00:16:49:08
who's blind or low vision, etc.,

00:16:49:11 - 00:16:50:20
I might realize,

00:16:50:20 - 00:16:52:19
oh, they don't know what this image is.

00:16:52:19 - 00:16:53:15
That's on my slide

00:16:53:15 - 00:16:55:06
that I'm talking about.

00:16:55:06 - 00:16:56:15
It helps other people

00:16:56:15 - 00:16:58:22
if I talk about the image on my slide,

00:16:58:22 - 00:16:59:23
because some people might

00:16:59:23 - 00:17:01:24
not realize why I picked that image

00:17:01:24 - 00:17:03:03
unless I had said more,

00:17:03:03 - 00:17:03:22
you know what I mean?

00:17:03:22 - 00:17:04:10
Like,

00:17:04:10 - 00:17:08:05
or it might even ground me in what my

00:17:08:11 - 00:17:10:01
what my purpose was for today

00:17:10:01 - 00:17:11:17
of how I'm connecting one thing

00:17:11:17 - 00:17:12:19
to another.

00:17:12:19 - 00:17:13:24
It also encourages me

00:17:13:24 - 00:17:15:04
not to make my slides cluttered,

00:17:15:04 - 00:17:15:28
which we all know

00:17:15:28 - 00:17:17:00
from learning standpoint.

00:17:17:00 - 00:17:19:09
Cluttered files don't help anyone, right?

00:17:19:09 - 00:17:21:29
So if I'm thinking about how I design

00:17:21:29 - 00:17:23:08
my slide deck in a way

00:17:23:08 - 00:17:24:14
that might be benefiting

00:17:24:14 - 00:17:25:11
this one individual

00:17:25:11 - 00:17:26:03
who made themselves

00:17:26:03 - 00:17:26:24
known, to me,

00:17:26:24 - 00:17:28:10
it's actually got many other good

00:17:28:10 - 00:17:29:26
ripple effects, right?

00:17:29:26 - 00:17:30:28
So then I'll switch

00:17:30:28 - 00:17:32:10
to virtual environment

00:17:32:10 - 00:17:33:09
like let's say

00:17:33:09 - 00:17:36:20
I turn on closed captions because I know

00:17:36:20 - 00:17:39:17
there is an attendee who is deaf or has

00:17:39:17 - 00:17:40:23
low hearing, etc..

00:17:42:09 - 00:17:44:17
That might help many other people too,

00:17:44:17 - 00:17:44:27
you know,

00:17:44:27 - 00:17:45:26
that might help someone

00:17:45:26 - 00:17:47:27
who I spoke too quickly

00:17:47:27 - 00:17:49:20
and so seeing the closed caption

00:17:49:20 - 00:17:51:00
helped them follow along.

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:52:07
Or maybe there's someone

00:17:52:07 - 00:17:53:28
whose first language is different

00:17:53:28 - 00:17:54:27
than my first language,

00:17:54:27 - 00:17:55:21
and so

00:17:55:21 - 00:17:57:02
there might be nuance in something

00:17:57:02 - 00:17:58:13
I said that's easier to pick up

00:17:58:13 - 00:17:59:29
with the closed caption, etc.

00:17:59:29 - 00:18:01:10
so that's what I mean

00:18:01:10 - 00:18:01:23
is, like,

00:18:01:23 - 00:18:02:25
I get so excited

00:18:02:25 - 00:18:05:08
when people ask for an accommodation,

00:18:05:08 - 00:18:06:06
and I always then

00:18:06:06 - 00:18:08:17
just build it into how I run things.

00:18:08:17 - 00:18:09:18
And then finally,

00:18:09:18 - 00:18:11:05
I think a lot about language

00:18:11:05 - 00:18:12:29
where so many instructions

00:18:12:29 - 00:18:13:29
someone might give an a

00:18:13:29 - 00:18:15:19
training session of,

00:18:15:19 - 00:18:19:05
you know, I'll think about,

00:18:19:05 - 00:18:20:14
draw on the screen.

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:21:02
I love to do

00:18:21:02 - 00:18:21:21
draw on the screen

00:18:21:21 - 00:18:22:19
activities, by the way,

00:18:22:19 - 00:18:24:26
but I'll add, if you're able,

00:18:24:26 - 00:18:26:12
that that might help

00:18:26:12 - 00:18:27:12
some people with disability,

00:18:27:12 - 00:18:29:14
but that also might help someone who

00:18:29:14 - 00:18:31:09
who is struggling with the technology

00:18:31:09 - 00:18:32:07
and doesn't know how

00:18:32:07 - 00:18:33:23
they would draw on the screen

00:18:33:23 - 00:18:35:13
if using the adding the term

00:18:35:13 - 00:18:37:25
if you're able applies to many things.

00:18:37:25 - 00:18:39:14
It's not just necessarily

00:18:39:14 - 00:18:40:12
for that one thing.

00:18:40:12 - 00:18:41:25
So I mean, even today

00:18:41:25 - 00:18:43:04
I didn't say watch the recording.

00:18:43:04 - 00:18:43:22
I said like ingest

00:18:43:22 - 00:18:44:20
the recording

00:18:44:20 - 00:18:45:08
because I don't know

00:18:45:08 - 00:18:47:05
how people are absorbing our recording,

00:18:47:05 - 00:18:47:25
you know.

00:18:47:25 - 00:18:51:01
So I find that that also keeps it

00:18:51:01 - 00:18:53:15
top of mind for me all the time.

00:18:53:15 - 00:18:54:14
And then I hope

00:18:54:14 - 00:18:56:08
it also contributed to an environment

00:18:56:08 - 00:18:57:16
where people could say something

00:18:57:16 - 00:18:59:05
extra they need.

00:18:59:05 - 00:18:59:28
And usually I'll build

00:18:59:28 - 00:19:01:05
that into intros of if,

00:19:01:05 - 00:19:01:26
you know, if there's any way

00:19:01:26 - 00:19:03:06
I can make this more supportive

00:19:03:06 - 00:19:04:19
in some way, let me know.

00:19:04:19 - 00:19:07:11
But I find that it helps.

00:19:07:11 - 00:19:09:01
It helps many people,

00:19:09:01 - 00:19:10:25
not just the intended original audience.

00:19:10:25 - 00:19:12:15
And often it helps me too.

00:19:12:15 - 00:19:13:16
Yeah, no, I love that,

00:19:13:16 - 00:19:16:00
because what you said is you learned

00:19:16:00 - 00:19:17:11
and then you integrated, right?

00:19:17:11 - 00:19:19:13
So you're willing to make a change

00:19:19:13 - 00:19:23:08
because that change the request was not a

00:19:24:01 - 00:19:25:06
it was not meant to put you

00:19:25:06 - 00:19:26:10
on the defensive. Right.

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:27:25
And I think again, back to your

00:19:27:25 - 00:19:28:21
your point earlier,

00:19:28:21 - 00:19:30:22
is anything that we see

00:19:30:22 - 00:19:33:28
outside of perfection on ourselves

00:19:34:14 - 00:19:35:03
gets our,

00:19:35:03 - 00:19:35:20
you know,

00:19:35:20 - 00:19:36:26
oh, I feel frustrated,

00:19:36:26 - 00:19:37:19
I feel embarrassed,

00:19:37:19 - 00:19:38:08
I feel like

00:19:38:08 - 00:19:39:16
I should have thought of this before.

00:19:39:16 - 00:19:41:02
All of those kind of human emotions

00:19:41:02 - 00:19:41:28
that we go through.

00:19:41:28 - 00:19:43:28
And instead of getting defensive,

00:19:43:28 - 00:19:45:00
you took that information

00:19:45:00 - 00:19:46:17
and you ingested it,

00:19:46:17 - 00:19:47:27
and then you made adjustments

00:19:47:27 - 00:19:50:15
that make you a better facilitator,

00:19:50:15 - 00:19:52:15
but also create better spaces

00:19:52:15 - 00:19:53:09
for the work

00:19:53:09 - 00:19:54:21
that you're trying to accomplish,

00:19:54:21 - 00:19:56:02
whether that's Dei

00:19:56:02 - 00:19:58:29
or it's a board meeting it. Right.

00:19:58:29 - 00:20:00:29
This is applicable in any situation

00:20:00:29 - 00:20:02:00
that you're talking about.

00:20:03:03 - 00:20:04:24
And, you know, just kind of

00:20:04:24 - 00:20:06:08
speaking of board meetings,

00:20:06:08 - 00:20:08:03
if we kind of switch over

00:20:08:03 - 00:20:09:08
just a little bit over

00:20:09:08 - 00:20:12:08
the past few months, we've seen,

00:20:12:17 - 00:20:14:10
I don't want to say unprecedented.

00:20:14:10 - 00:20:16:11
I think it's unprecedented for us

00:20:16:11 - 00:20:17:26
because as professionals, it's

00:20:17:26 - 00:20:18:25
probably the first time

00:20:18:25 - 00:20:20:11
we're living through it.

00:20:20:11 - 00:20:24:08
But we're seeing a really large

00:20:25:10 - 00:20:28:10
public pushback to die

00:20:28:10 - 00:20:32:15
programs, just inclusion in general,

00:20:33:02 - 00:20:36:04
from far right

00:20:36:04 - 00:20:39:08
influencers, from politicians,

00:20:39:08 - 00:20:40:12
probably from people

00:20:40:12 - 00:20:42:11
in our in our personal lives

00:20:42:11 - 00:20:44:08
and in our business lives.

00:20:44:08 - 00:20:45:15
And as a result,

00:20:45:15 - 00:20:46:20
we're seeing

00:20:46:20 - 00:20:47:11
what I will say,

00:20:47:11 - 00:20:47:28
quite frankly,

00:20:47:28 - 00:20:49:27
is a lot of very big brands

00:20:49:27 - 00:20:51:06
chickening out

00:20:51:06 - 00:20:52:13
and pulling back

00:20:52:13 - 00:20:54:11
from the commitments that they made,

00:20:54:11 - 00:20:54:23
you know,

00:20:54:23 - 00:20:56:20
during the after

00:20:56:20 - 00:20:58:14
the murder of George Floyd and,

00:20:58:14 - 00:21:00:16
you know, during this sort of rise of

00:21:00:16 - 00:21:03:01
LGBTQ rights and

00:21:04:08 - 00:21:05:07
I'm always very blunt.

00:21:05:07 - 00:21:06:27
So don't feel like you have to be

00:21:06:27 - 00:21:07:27
as blunt as I am.

00:21:07:27 - 00:21:08:21
But, you know,

00:21:08:21 - 00:21:09:09
what are you

00:21:09:09 - 00:21:12:09
hearing and experiencing in your business

00:21:12:13 - 00:21:14:10
or even your personal life?

00:21:14:10 - 00:21:19:02
That is, part of that backlash to DEI?

00:21:19:02 - 00:21:20:05
Has it changed

00:21:20:05 - 00:21:23:05
how you approach things at all?

00:21:23:17 - 00:21:25:13
Yeah, yeah, I think about it

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:26:22
from a number of angles.

00:21:26:22 - 00:21:30:28
One is coming from a place of privilege

00:21:31:14 - 00:21:34:01
because at least related to this topic,

00:21:34:01 - 00:21:35:01
the city I live in, I'm in

00:21:35:01 - 00:21:37:10
Chicago, is a fairly liberal city.

00:21:37:10 - 00:21:39:05
So I will say locally,

00:21:39:05 - 00:21:41:00
I have not noticed much of a shift.

00:21:41:00 - 00:21:42:26
I definitely have in some other spaces.

00:21:42:26 - 00:21:43:21
Mentioned in a moment.

00:21:43:21 - 00:21:46:03
But you you made me think board meeting.

00:21:46:03 - 00:21:49:02
I'm on the board of a nonprofit

00:21:49:02 - 00:21:49:26
here in Chicago

00:21:49:26 - 00:21:52:01
that's committed to ending homelessness.

00:21:52:01 - 00:21:53:11
And,

00:21:53:11 - 00:21:55:12
they are very focused on racial equity.

00:21:55:12 - 00:21:57:10
And I've been delighted to see that

00:21:57:10 - 00:21:58:17
not change.

00:21:58:17 - 00:21:59:08
In fact,

00:21:59:08 - 00:22:01:20
I would say as much of my DEI education over

00:22:01:20 - 00:22:02:00
the years

00:22:02:00 - 00:22:03:14
has come from being involved with that

00:22:03:14 - 00:22:04:02
nonprofit

00:22:04:02 - 00:22:06:16
as much as it has from my day job.

00:22:06:16 - 00:22:07:27
So I guess I'll just say,

00:22:07:27 - 00:22:09:21
I'm sure there are still spaces

00:22:09:21 - 00:22:10:10
in Chicago

00:22:10:10 - 00:22:11:17
where things have shifted

00:22:11:17 - 00:22:12:19
in an unfortunate way,

00:22:12:19 - 00:22:14:08
but I would say mostly

00:22:14:08 - 00:22:16:01
I've been encouraged to see things,

00:22:16:01 - 00:22:18:22
and especially in nonprofit world, etc.

00:22:18:22 - 00:22:22:00
locally,

00:22:22:00 - 00:22:22:13
at least

00:22:22:13 - 00:22:24:26
still be very aware of how important DEI 

00:22:24:26 - 00:22:27:02
is, which is good to see.

00:22:27:02 - 00:22:27:10
Yeah.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:30:12
I mean, the last company I worked for,

00:22:30:25 - 00:22:33:05
they struggled a lot with navigating that

00:22:33:05 - 00:22:33:27
because they were

00:22:33:27 - 00:22:35:23
DEI was their mission. And

00:22:36:29 - 00:22:38:05
I think what's particularly

00:22:38:05 - 00:22:39:22
frustrating about it is there

00:22:39:22 - 00:22:42:22
there may be people who, if it

00:22:42:22 - 00:22:44:14
if they weren't hearing certain angles,

00:22:44:14 - 00:22:46:06
they actually probably would be agreeing

00:22:46:06 - 00:22:47:18
with the concept of it. Right?

00:22:47:18 - 00:22:50:18
So it's this idea of like,

00:22:51:09 - 00:22:53:07
you know, where is the miseducation

00:22:53:07 - 00:22:57:09
and where might people be being

00:22:57:13 - 00:22:59:09
be hearing a scarcity mindset,

00:22:59:09 - 00:23:00:18
which is real because as humans

00:23:00:18 - 00:23:02:12
we worry about things, right?

00:23:02:12 - 00:23:03:27
But be missing

00:23:03:27 - 00:23:05:17
what the benefits are for everyone.

00:23:05:17 - 00:23:06:10
Similar to how

00:23:06:10 - 00:23:08:04
I was talking about accessibility,

00:23:08:04 - 00:23:09:14
there are many benefits

00:23:09:14 - 00:23:10:17
if we make our systems

00:23:10:17 - 00:23:11:29
more equitable, that helps.

00:23:11:29 - 00:23:13:03
That helps everybody.

00:23:13:03 - 00:23:16:03
And just thinking about like

00:23:16:27 - 00:23:17:14
all of that,

00:23:17:14 - 00:23:18:04
like, mostly

00:23:18:04 - 00:23:18:26
I just

00:23:18:26 - 00:23:21:09
I'm sad about how that has shifted.

00:23:21:09 - 00:23:22:12
But I do think it

00:23:22:12 - 00:23:24:28
it opens up a realm of us

00:23:24:28 - 00:23:26:04
being more direct in

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:27:09
how we talk about things,

00:23:27:09 - 00:23:28:10
acknowledging angles.

00:23:28:10 - 00:23:30:16
Maybe we're skipping over before,

00:23:30:16 - 00:23:32:12
and then also

00:23:32:12 - 00:23:34:01
thinking about how to meet people

00:23:34:01 - 00:23:35:11
where they're at related to that.

00:23:35:11 - 00:23:38:11
Like maybe, I, I don't

00:23:38:17 - 00:23:41:19
I don't love spaces that are arbitrarily

00:23:41:19 - 00:23:44:04
changing the language around DEI.

00:23:44:04 - 00:23:46:05
Because there have been

00:23:46:05 - 00:23:47:06
some pretty public things

00:23:47:06 - 00:23:48:10
recently of people,

00:23:48:10 - 00:23:50:14
dropping equity or whatever.

00:23:50:14 - 00:23:51:12
They're keeping equity.

00:23:51:12 - 00:23:53:08
I don't know who that was. Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:54:11 - 00:23:54:21
Yeah.

00:23:54:21 - 00:23:56:17
I, what's really unfortunate

00:23:56:17 - 00:23:58:09
is I spoke at a big conference

00:23:58:09 - 00:23:59:07
that I was really proud of

00:23:59:07 - 00:24:00:19
and shortly after that happened,

00:24:00:19 - 00:24:01:25
and that that was a bummer.

00:24:01:25 - 00:24:04:27
But but, I do

00:24:04:27 - 00:24:06:07
think that there are some spaces

00:24:06:07 - 00:24:07:01
where people might

00:24:07:01 - 00:24:08:07
rename something

00:24:08:07 - 00:24:10:27
in a in, in an authentic way

00:24:10:27 - 00:24:12:13
where if we're talking about like,

00:24:12:13 - 00:24:13:00
I mean, I think

00:24:13:00 - 00:24:14:15
even talking about courage

00:24:14:15 - 00:24:16:05
could be about DEI, right?

00:24:16:05 - 00:24:16:26
Like,

00:24:16:26 - 00:24:18:09
I think I think there's ways

00:24:18:09 - 00:24:19:07
you can come at something

00:24:19:07 - 00:24:21:05
that's still authentic

00:24:21:05 - 00:24:24:09
and might might be a way

00:24:24:09 - 00:24:25:04
that people could think

00:24:25:04 - 00:24:26:04
a little bit differently.

00:24:26:04 - 00:24:27:29
And then as you build the trust,

00:24:27:29 - 00:24:29:16
connect it to

00:24:29:16 - 00:24:30:15
and this is what

00:24:30:15 - 00:24:33:07
what my experience of DEI is.

00:24:33:07 - 00:24:36:00
Right. So it's not it's like it's not

00:24:37:05 - 00:24:37:15
it's sort

00:24:37:15 - 00:24:39:08
of phased I mean any of us might face

00:24:39:08 - 00:24:40:23
anything we do in the world. Right.

00:24:40:23 - 00:24:41:16
Is like

00:24:41:16 - 00:24:42:18
you know we might share

00:24:42:18 - 00:24:43:25
more with each other over time

00:24:43:25 - 00:24:45:12
as we get to know and trust each other.

00:24:45:12 - 00:24:46:13
I think that can be

00:24:46:13 - 00:24:48:04
how Dei works is,

00:24:48:04 - 00:24:48:12
you know,

00:24:48:12 - 00:24:49:01
maybe we start

00:24:49:01 - 00:24:50:07
from a leadership standpoint

00:24:50:07 - 00:24:50:14
or what

00:24:50:14 - 00:24:51:14
our leadership skills,

00:24:51:14 - 00:24:53:16
maybe we start about like culture

00:24:53:16 - 00:24:54:27
or all of that.

00:24:54:27 - 00:24:56:07
But all of that actually

00:24:56:07 - 00:24:58:14
does have Dei baked right into it.

00:24:58:14 - 00:25:00:17
And so,

00:25:00:17 - 00:25:02:06
I'm open to creativity on it

00:25:02:06 - 00:25:04:26
and I'm open to see how things evolve.

00:25:04:26 - 00:25:06:02
But I,

00:25:06:02 - 00:25:09:11
I think it's actually helping no one to,

00:25:09:20 - 00:25:11:15
to stay away from these topics.

00:25:11:15 - 00:25:13:24
And I think it's keeping the world

00:25:13:24 - 00:25:14:24
more disconnected

00:25:14:24 - 00:25:15:18
when actually we,

00:25:15:18 - 00:25:16:26
we learn that people thrive

00:25:16:26 - 00:25:18:19
most in connection

00:25:18:19 - 00:25:21:12
and connection can be uncomfortable.

00:25:21:12 - 00:25:23:06
Yeah. No, it absolutely is.

00:25:23:06 - 00:25:24:25
And and you know,

00:25:24:25 - 00:25:27:24
I think this sort of whiplash is

00:25:27:24 - 00:25:29:03
what I talk about a lot

00:25:29:03 - 00:25:31:15
is that we have companies

00:25:31:15 - 00:25:34:07
who are not necessarily

00:25:34:07 - 00:25:35:23
doing the work yet,

00:25:35:23 - 00:25:36:23
because all the things

00:25:36:23 - 00:25:38:00
that you talked about that

00:25:38:00 - 00:25:39:05
we talk about at Disability

00:25:39:05 - 00:25:40:28
Solutions is doing the work.

00:25:40:28 - 00:25:43:11
Right. It's how do we change culture?

00:25:43:11 - 00:25:44:24
How do we change processes,

00:25:44:24 - 00:25:45:29
how do we create leaders

00:25:45:29 - 00:25:47:17
that understand that

00:25:47:17 - 00:25:49:28
being a great leader helps

00:25:50:27 - 00:25:52:20
underrepresented populations?

00:25:52:20 - 00:25:54:20
Being an empathetic leader helps

00:25:54:20 - 00:25:56:10
underrepresented populations.

00:25:56:10 - 00:25:57:16
It helps your business

00:25:57:16 - 00:25:59:00
to be more successful.

00:25:59:00 - 00:26:01:09
And then when companies

00:26:01:09 - 00:26:02:21
sort of go, oh my gosh,

00:26:02:21 - 00:26:04:05
I have to make a public statement,

00:26:04:05 - 00:26:05:16
I have to make a public stance

00:26:05:16 - 00:26:07:09
when they're not actually yet

00:26:07:09 - 00:26:08:18
engaged in the work

00:26:08:18 - 00:26:09:12
as who they are,

00:26:09:12 - 00:26:11:05
as as an organization,

00:26:11:05 - 00:26:13:08
as a culture, as a brand.

00:26:13:08 - 00:26:14:27
And then they pull back from that.

00:26:14:27 - 00:26:18:10
It creates more damage to their brand.

00:26:18:13 - 00:26:20:22
Then then

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:22:24
the saying nothing at all

00:26:22:24 - 00:26:24:05
over the entirety of it.

00:26:24:05 - 00:26:25:00
And, you know,

00:26:25:00 - 00:26:28:04
we really encourage companies to be true

00:26:28:04 - 00:26:29:17
to who they are,

00:26:29:17 - 00:26:31:19
be willing to make changes, be willing

00:26:31:19 - 00:26:32:21
to grow and adjust,

00:26:32:21 - 00:26:34:08
but don't put out statements

00:26:34:08 - 00:26:35:06
or don't build,

00:26:35:06 - 00:26:37:22
you know, a Dei

00:26:37:22 - 00:26:39:18
presence on your corporate career site.

00:26:39:18 - 00:26:40:24
If you're not willing

00:26:40:24 - 00:26:42:11
and you're not able to do the work.

00:26:42:11 - 00:26:44:06
Like we have to be honest with ourselves

00:26:44:06 - 00:26:45:19
as corporate leaders about

00:26:45:19 - 00:26:47:24
when we should be doing that.

00:26:47:24 - 00:26:48:29
And and those are,

00:26:48:29 - 00:26:49:14
you know,

00:26:49:14 - 00:26:51:01
kind of a lot of the conversations

00:26:51:01 - 00:26:52:23
that we've been having lately.

00:26:52:23 - 00:26:54:28
But I've also,

00:26:54:28 - 00:26:55:07
you know,

00:26:55:07 - 00:26:56:21
want to kind of acknowledge

00:26:56:21 - 00:26:59:10
that it does cause

00:26:59:10 - 00:27:00:28
trauma may be a strong verb.

00:27:00:28 - 00:27:01:28
It does cause grief,

00:27:01:28 - 00:27:04:13
it does cause trauma, it does cause fear.

00:27:04:13 - 00:27:06:20
And and uncertainty

00:27:06:20 - 00:27:07:20
in populations

00:27:07:20 - 00:27:08:23
who feel like their voices

00:27:08:23 - 00:27:09:16
are being heard.

00:27:09:16 - 00:27:11:08
And all of the sudden,

00:27:11:08 - 00:27:13:22
brands are pulling back from them.

00:27:13:22 - 00:27:14:20
And something

00:27:14:20 - 00:27:16:07
that caught my attention on your,

00:27:16:07 - 00:27:18:23
your site was trauma-informed.

00:27:18:23 - 00:27:20:09
Workplaces is an area

00:27:20:09 - 00:27:21:26
you do facilitation.

00:27:21:26 - 00:27:24:20
I have no idea what that means.

00:27:24:20 - 00:27:26:04
But as someone who's,

00:27:26:04 - 00:27:26:26
you know, done

00:27:26:26 - 00:27:27:18
counseling, done

00:27:27:18 - 00:27:29:09
therapy as a part of best practices

00:27:29:09 - 00:27:30:29
of of my life,

00:27:30:29 - 00:27:33:05
I've heard that word trauma a

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:34:17
lot, but I've never heard it

00:27:35:24 - 00:27:38:13
as an informed workplace.

00:27:38:13 - 00:27:41:21
Yeah, I, I, I,

00:27:41:24 - 00:27:43:21
I don't currently have any programs

00:27:43:21 - 00:27:44:21
that are specifically about that.

00:27:44:21 - 00:27:46:08
It's, it's part of what I bring

00:27:46:08 - 00:27:47:16
in, the work that I do.

00:27:47:16 - 00:27:48:04
It's like it's

00:27:48:04 - 00:27:49:06
part of the foundation

00:27:49:06 - 00:27:50:27
and it's part of my background is

00:27:50:27 - 00:27:52:18
I went through a nine month

00:27:52:18 - 00:27:55:15
trauma informed program here in Chicago.

00:27:55:15 - 00:27:59:09
And it's changed a lot of how I operate.

00:27:59:09 - 00:28:00:19
Similar to some other ways

00:28:00:19 - 00:28:01:00
I've talked

00:28:01:00 - 00:28:02:04
about other things here today.

00:28:02:04 - 00:28:04:17
So, and I think you're,

00:28:04:17 - 00:28:06:04
you're spot on to connect it

00:28:06:04 - 00:28:07:10
the way that you have as well.

00:28:07:10 - 00:28:07:20
I guess

00:28:07:20 - 00:28:08:16
one thing I'll mention

00:28:08:16 - 00:28:10:07
from what you said before is,

00:28:10:07 - 00:28:12:00
I think when companies

00:28:12:00 - 00:28:13:16
I'm gonna use the word performative

00:28:13:16 - 00:28:14:13
or performative

00:28:14:13 - 00:28:15:21
and what they put out there

00:28:15:21 - 00:28:17:05
without doing the work,

00:28:17:05 - 00:28:19:21
employees can tell, right?

00:28:19:21 - 00:28:21:18
Like employees just

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:23:10
feel the inauthenticity.

00:28:23:10 - 00:28:25:21
They feel the mismatch in behaviors

00:28:25:21 - 00:28:26:20
towards them versus

00:28:26:20 - 00:28:27:12
what they're hearing

00:28:27:12 - 00:28:29:16
or seeing on platforms, etc..

00:28:29:16 - 00:28:31:10
And,

00:28:31:10 - 00:28:33:20
I think that can be a collective trauma

00:28:33:20 - 00:28:35:20
because it might also reinforce

00:28:35:20 - 00:28:37:06
things that have been happening

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:39:17
someone's whole life, right, of

00:28:39:17 - 00:28:41:06
saying one thing, doing another,

00:28:41:06 - 00:28:42:25
or not feeling seen or heard.

00:28:42:25 - 00:28:44:24
And also we could go on a whole rabbit

00:28:44:24 - 00:28:45:08
hole of

00:28:45:08 - 00:28:46:01
why companies

00:28:46:01 - 00:28:48:20
don't don't listen to their people more

00:28:48:20 - 00:28:50:05
especially like quote unquote,

00:28:50:05 - 00:28:52:04
lower level people like

00:28:52:04 - 00:28:52:16
those are

00:28:52:16 - 00:28:54:00
some of the most important voices,

00:28:54:00 - 00:28:55:01
I think, in a company.

00:28:55:01 - 00:28:56:16
And like more companies

00:28:56:16 - 00:28:58:13
don't design more forms

00:28:58:13 - 00:28:59:21
where people can really say real

00:28:59:21 - 00:29:02:06
things and pivot and be listened to, etc.

00:29:02:06 - 00:29:03:01
is beyond me.

00:29:04:04 - 00:29:04:12
Like I

00:29:04:12 - 00:29:05:18
said, a lot of tangency

00:29:05:18 - 00:29:08:06
probably go on there, but yeah, for me,

00:29:08:06 - 00:29:10:16
so what I learned so I went through

00:29:10:16 - 00:29:11:12
the program was through,

00:29:11:12 - 00:29:13:01
an organization called

00:29:13:01 - 00:29:14:16
the Chicago Resiliency Network,

00:29:14:16 - 00:29:16:13
and they were backed by a neuroscience

00:29:16:13 - 00:29:18:04
company called Kintla.

00:29:18:04 - 00:29:19:01
I think really highly

00:29:19:01 - 00:29:22:01
both those those spaces and

00:29:22:05 - 00:29:25:05
what they've learned is that

00:29:25:19 - 00:29:28:19
people who have experienced,

00:29:29:23 - 00:29:32:19
the least safety in our society,

00:29:32:19 - 00:29:33:11
you know, who,

00:29:33:11 - 00:29:35:12
who aren't on on the spectrums of power

00:29:35:12 - 00:29:36:11
and privilege that,

00:29:36:11 - 00:29:38:12
maybe you and I are, for example, it

00:29:38:12 - 00:29:40:07
not to say I know your whole life, but,

00:29:40:07 - 00:29:43:07
just thinking about even our roles

00:29:43:07 - 00:29:44:03
and all that, right?

00:29:44:03 - 00:29:44:22
Like,

00:29:44:22 - 00:29:46:16
people who have experienced

00:29:46:16 - 00:29:47:24
more adversity

00:29:47:24 - 00:29:49:27
also have experienced more trauma.

00:29:49:27 - 00:29:51:08
And what we know about trauma

00:29:51:08 - 00:29:52:20
from neuroscience or any of us.

00:29:52:20 - 00:29:53:14
And I've had, like,

00:29:53:14 - 00:29:55:02
life traumas as well too, is,

00:29:56:13 - 00:29:57:29
you you feel

00:29:57:29 - 00:29:59:11
less safe in some environments

00:29:59:11 - 00:30:00:29
than someone else might.

00:30:00:29 - 00:30:03:04
And our threat response can be higher.

00:30:03:04 - 00:30:04:03
They took effect.

00:30:04:03 - 00:30:05:03
Maybe you've even heard the term

00:30:05:03 - 00:30:06:15
Ace score where,

00:30:06:15 - 00:30:08:06
adverse childhood

00:30:08:06 - 00:30:09:05
experiences, like,

00:30:09:05 - 00:30:10:16
based on trauma in childhood.

00:30:10:16 - 00:30:11:16
There's anyway

00:30:11:16 - 00:30:12:28
a lot of things people could look into.

00:30:12:28 - 00:30:13:17
I'm not necessarily

00:30:13:17 - 00:30:14:22
the experts on these things,

00:30:14:22 - 00:30:16:04
but what we've learned

00:30:16:04 - 00:30:18:15
is the more trauma someone's experienced,

00:30:18:15 - 00:30:20:20
the higher their threat response is.

00:30:20:20 - 00:30:22:28
And if you don't understand

00:30:22:28 - 00:30:24:24
that in how you're running a culture,

00:30:24:24 - 00:30:27:17
you might be creating

00:30:27:17 - 00:30:28:15
more spaces

00:30:28:15 - 00:30:31:08
where people feel unsafe than you realize

00:30:31:08 - 00:30:32:25
and you don't need to know

00:30:32:25 - 00:30:35:02
everyone's life story to fix that.

00:30:35:02 - 00:30:37:03
You just need to design your workplace

00:30:37:03 - 00:30:37:24
in a way

00:30:37:24 - 00:30:38:28
where there are more ways

00:30:38:28 - 00:30:39:28
where people can regulate

00:30:39:28 - 00:30:40:28
their nervous systems

00:30:40:28 - 00:30:42:16
individually and together,

00:30:42:16 - 00:30:44:08
and there are lots of small,

00:30:44:08 - 00:30:45:25
easy ways to do that.

00:30:45:25 - 00:30:47:06
And then it impacts

00:30:47:06 - 00:30:48:21
things like physical safety

00:30:48:21 - 00:30:49:28
in the workplace as well too.

00:30:49:28 - 00:30:50:28
It impacts everything.

00:30:50:28 - 00:30:51:20
And so

00:30:51:20 - 00:30:53:11
I thought it was just such a cool angle

00:30:53:11 - 00:30:54:19
that this program was doing that.

00:30:54:19 - 00:30:55:25
I was like,

00:30:55:25 - 00:30:57:18
I made the business case to go to it.

00:30:57:18 - 00:30:59:00
I got some other people to go to it.

00:30:59:00 - 00:31:01:19
And to me, I think a lot about

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:03:14
just it just I

00:31:03:14 - 00:31:04:07
think it just ties to

00:31:04:07 - 00:31:06:17
that concept of safety is

00:31:06:17 - 00:31:08:22
anything could be tricky for anyone,

00:31:08:22 - 00:31:10:20
any topic that we might talk about.

00:31:10:20 - 00:31:13:16
So if I go into that topic intentionally

00:31:13:16 - 00:31:15:10
and if I am, you know,

00:31:15:10 - 00:31:17:05
thinking about how I phrase things

00:31:17:05 - 00:31:18:21
and if I'm thinking about

00:31:18:21 - 00:31:19:15
how I,

00:31:19:15 - 00:31:21:09
you know, own my own struggle in it,

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:22:14
where people know it's okay

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:23:12
that they're not doing this

00:31:23:12 - 00:31:24:24
perfectly, etc.

00:31:24:24 - 00:31:26:19
more things can rise to the top

00:31:26:19 - 00:31:27:12
and more people

00:31:27:12 - 00:31:29:03
can actually bring their brilliance

00:31:29:03 - 00:31:31:14
to the table as opposed to assessing,

00:31:31:14 - 00:31:33:01
threatened safety.

00:31:33:01 - 00:31:33:29
I'm probably not saying

00:31:33:29 - 00:31:35:24
all of that is great, as I could,

00:31:35:24 - 00:31:36:29
but I think there's

00:31:36:29 - 00:31:38:19
just so much to unlock there.

00:31:38:19 - 00:31:39:24
And,

00:31:39:24 - 00:31:42:12
I think that trauma and DEI can go

00:31:42:12 - 00:31:43:09
hand in hand.

00:31:43:09 - 00:31:43:25
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:43:25 - 00:31:44:27
No, I mean,

00:31:44:27 - 00:31:46:25
thank you for just taking a few minutes

00:31:46:25 - 00:31:48:08
to give us an overview

00:31:48:08 - 00:31:51:11
because it is a new term for me.

00:31:51:11 - 00:31:54:15
And I think it's just so relevant to

00:31:55:05 - 00:31:56:14
meeting our staff,

00:31:56:14 - 00:31:58:13
our employees, our people,

00:31:58:13 - 00:32:00:00
right where they are.

00:32:00:00 - 00:32:02:27
And it doesn't have to be all fluffy

00:32:02:27 - 00:32:04:06
feeling and therapy

00:32:04:06 - 00:32:07:06
feeling right to just understand that

00:32:07:11 - 00:32:10:04
these are the words that we use

00:32:10:04 - 00:32:11:20
and this is how it's impactful.

00:32:11:20 - 00:32:13:07
This is the environment that we create

00:32:13:07 - 00:32:15:10
and this is how it's impactful.

00:32:15:10 - 00:32:16:27
And I think we, you know,

00:32:16:27 - 00:32:19:09
one of the Dei backlashes

00:32:19:09 - 00:32:22:14
is we get caught in a term, and,

00:32:22:14 - 00:32:25:09
and then we feel fear of that term.

00:32:25:09 - 00:32:26:11
Right. Well, yeah.

00:32:26:11 - 00:32:28:04
Oh my God, people have trauma. Okay.

00:32:28:04 - 00:32:29:04
Everyone knows trauma, you know.

00:32:29:04 - 00:32:29:23
And it just

00:32:29:23 - 00:32:31:23
you even feel how that like,

00:32:31:23 - 00:32:32:26
can impact people.

00:32:32:26 - 00:32:34:22
But what you've done is taken

00:32:34:22 - 00:32:37:01
something that we know from psychology

00:32:37:01 - 00:32:38:27
that is is it true.

00:32:38:27 - 00:32:41:13
Is it true for so many people?

00:32:41:13 - 00:32:42:17
And then you made it

00:32:42:17 - 00:32:43:29
easier to understand.

00:32:43:29 - 00:32:44:22
And it's it

00:32:44:22 - 00:32:46:16
creates a business impact, right?

00:32:46:16 - 00:32:48:22
When we create that kind of environment

00:32:48:22 - 00:32:52:16
where we're thoughtful, about everyone's

00:32:53:05 - 00:32:55:07
lived experience without a knowing it.

00:32:55:07 - 00:32:56:19
I think that's something important

00:32:56:19 - 00:32:58:24
that you you said we don't have to know.

00:32:58:24 - 00:32:59:08
Everyone's

00:32:59:08 - 00:33:01:00
lived experiences to build

00:33:01:00 - 00:33:03:05
thoughtfully and inclusively.

00:33:03:05 - 00:33:06:28
And we don't have to be fearful.

00:33:06:29 - 00:33:08:20
We need to just be thoughtful

00:33:08:20 - 00:33:11:01
and be willing to say, hey,

00:33:11:01 - 00:33:12:08
I mucked it up.

00:33:12:08 - 00:33:13:28
I'll do better next time.

00:33:13:28 - 00:33:16:23
Thank you for allowing me to grow,

00:33:16:23 - 00:33:18:26
by giving me that information.

00:33:18:26 - 00:33:21:13
I think that's just it's

00:33:21:13 - 00:33:23:18
I will be diving more in and more.

00:33:23:18 - 00:33:24:03
Excuse me

00:33:24:03 - 00:33:26:28
to, to trauma informed workplaces.

00:33:26:28 - 00:33:29:02
So as we are wrapping up,

00:33:29:02 - 00:33:31:20
we always in the show with two questions.

00:33:31:20 - 00:33:33:15
And I never tell anyone in advance,

00:33:33:15 - 00:33:34:17
and I always apologize,

00:33:34:17 - 00:33:35:21
but I don't really mean it.

00:33:35:21 - 00:33:36:11
I just want to kind of

00:33:36:11 - 00:33:37:17
put you on the spot for a minute.

00:33:37:17 - 00:33:41:08
Is it tell me one thing

00:33:41:12 - 00:33:43:06
that you would tell,

00:33:43:06 - 00:33:45:02
a CEO, a corporate leader, a

00:33:45:02 - 00:33:46:28
TA  leader, an HR leader

00:33:46:28 - 00:33:47:29
that would help

00:33:47:29 - 00:33:50:29
change their minds about the value

00:33:51:06 - 00:33:53:05
that diverse

00:33:53:05 - 00:33:54:26
employees bring to their workplace.

00:34:00:27 - 00:34:03:27
I, I would say

00:34:04:15 - 00:34:06:14
if they have ERGs, BRGS,

00:34:06:14 - 00:34:08:21
whatever they would call in their org

00:34:08:21 - 00:34:09:20
is to involve

00:34:09:20 - 00:34:12:20
them more in big business decisions

00:34:12:20 - 00:34:15:17
and then they will see because

00:34:15:17 - 00:34:18:17
like or that it'll unfold because

00:34:19:00 - 00:34:20:03
not enough companies

00:34:20:03 - 00:34:22:00
are, are using their

00:34:22:00 - 00:34:23:04
groups in that way, or

00:34:23:04 - 00:34:24:03
I should say leveraging

00:34:24:03 - 00:34:25:22
their groups in that way.

00:34:25:22 - 00:34:27:17
And

00:34:27:17 - 00:34:29:23
there can be all these customer insights

00:34:29:23 - 00:34:31:25
and insights that are gonna get unlocked.

00:34:31:25 - 00:34:33:23
There can be all of these,

00:34:33:23 - 00:34:36:09
other ripple effects that come along too

00:34:36:09 - 00:34:37:23
And so that one I

00:34:37:23 - 00:34:38:23
they would have to do it

00:34:38:23 - 00:34:40:03
to see the full value

00:34:40:03 - 00:34:41:24
and what that advice would be,

00:34:41:24 - 00:34:44:05
but it would be a game changer.

00:34:44:05 - 00:34:45:23
Yeah. Oh, I love that.

00:34:45:23 - 00:34:46:23
And I've seen companies

00:34:46:23 - 00:34:47:18
that do that really well.

00:34:47:18 - 00:34:49:02
And you're 100% right.

00:34:49:02 - 00:34:50:26
But I've never said it that way before.

00:34:50:26 - 00:34:53:23
So second question what is something

00:34:53:23 - 00:34:56:05
that someone has done for you

00:34:56:05 - 00:34:57:05
to change your life?

00:35:06:06 - 00:35:08:20
I

00:35:08:20 - 00:35:09:23
there's a there are a bunch.

00:35:09:23 - 00:35:11:07
That's actually why I'm pausing is

00:35:11:07 - 00:35:11:27
unlike what

00:35:11:27 - 00:35:13:09
I'm actually feeling really grateful

00:35:13:09 - 00:35:14:25
because I can think of a few right now.

00:35:14:25 - 00:35:17:25

00:35:19:09 - 00:35:20:04
I would say,

00:35:20:04 - 00:35:22:02
supporting me

00:35:22:02 - 00:35:24:03
when I've been in deep times of grief.

00:35:24:03 - 00:35:27:03
And

00:35:27:05 - 00:35:28:02
I think grief

00:35:28:02 - 00:35:29:00
is another term

00:35:29:00 - 00:35:30:14
we could spend a lot of time on.

00:35:30:14 - 00:35:33:14
But that idea of

00:35:33:19 - 00:35:34:22
how you show up for people

00:35:34:22 - 00:35:35:12
when they're going through

00:35:35:12 - 00:35:37:22
something really hard,

00:35:37:22 - 00:35:39:07
some people might keep work

00:35:39:07 - 00:35:40:07
and personal life separate,

00:35:40:07 - 00:35:41:19
but there are times where you

00:35:41:19 - 00:35:43:00
those things can't be separate

00:35:43:00 - 00:35:44:28
because of how big the thing is.

00:35:44:28 - 00:35:48:11
And, I've, I've, I've had

00:35:49:03 - 00:35:50:00
a couple managers

00:35:50:00 - 00:35:50:29
who've really shown up for me,

00:35:50:29 - 00:35:52:24
even even more than I expected them to,

00:35:52:24 - 00:35:53:26
and it made all the difference.

00:35:53:26 - 00:35:56:25
And in my time working with them. Yeah.

00:35:56:25 - 00:35:58:12
So I would love

00:35:58:12 - 00:35:59:23
to have you back on the show

00:35:59:23 - 00:36:01:28
to just do a grief episode.

00:36:01:28 - 00:36:03:25
I would love to. Yeah.

00:36:03:25 - 00:36:05:20
One of the most impactful podcasts

00:36:05:20 - 00:36:06:15
I've ever done

00:36:06:15 - 00:36:08:20
was with a guy in our industry

00:36:08:20 - 00:36:09:20
named Tim Sackett,

00:36:09:20 - 00:36:11:20
and we had a conversation

00:36:11:20 - 00:36:12:16
with him about grief

00:36:12:16 - 00:36:14:21
just after his mother passed,

00:36:14:21 - 00:36:17:21
and it impacted me.

00:36:17:28 - 00:36:19:00
Dramatically in the way

00:36:19:00 - 00:36:19:24
that I think about it.

00:36:19:24 - 00:36:20:16
But still,

00:36:20:16 - 00:36:22:01
it was probably four years ago.

00:36:22:01 - 00:36:23:02
I still have people coming to me

00:36:23:02 - 00:36:23:22
and saying, like,

00:36:23:22 - 00:36:26:09
I never thought about our grief policies.

00:36:26:09 - 00:36:26:29
I never thought

00:36:26:29 - 00:36:28:06
about how to help people

00:36:28:06 - 00:36:31:20
as they are coming back to work, impacted

00:36:32:01 - 00:36:33:26
by whatever loss it

00:36:33:26 - 00:36:35:07
is that they're experiencing,

00:36:35:07 - 00:36:38:00
and this caused me to think about it.

00:36:38:00 - 00:36:39:05
So I think that is such

00:36:39:05 - 00:36:40:09
an incredible conversation

00:36:40:09 - 00:36:42:18
and will definitely, definitely do that.

00:36:42:18 - 00:36:46:14
So if people want to find you, Holly,

00:36:46:14 - 00:36:49:10
where do they find you? All the places.

00:36:49:10 - 00:36:51:18
Yeah, I'd say the big two are my website

00:36:51:18 - 00:36:53:07
and LinkedIn, at the moment.

00:36:53:07 - 00:36:56:07
So website is www.regimechange.co

00:36:56:07 - 00:36:59:11
and then LinkedIn probably.

00:36:59:11 - 00:37:00:13
I can't say my whole handle,

00:37:00:13 - 00:37:01:29
but I'm sure we can just link it.

00:37:01:29 - 00:37:02:16
We get it,

00:37:03:18 - 00:37:05:10
share.

00:37:05:10 - 00:37:07:03
But that for now, those

00:37:07:03 - 00:37:09:02
those are my two, two main spots.

00:37:09:02 - 00:37:10:01
So Holly O’Hern

00:37:10:01 - 00:37:10:23
at LinkedIn

00:37:10:23 - 00:37:14:23
and regimechange.co

00:37:14:23 - 00:37:16:00
Yeah. Awesome.

00:37:16:00 - 00:37:17:20
All right. Thank you so much.

00:37:17:20 - 00:37:19:15
This has been such a

00:37:19:15 - 00:37:21:00
an energetic conversation

00:37:21:00 - 00:37:22:20
and time for day.

00:37:22:20 - 00:37:24:24
Yeah I know, I know I know.

00:37:24:24 - 00:37:26:11
So thank you Holly.

00:37:26:11 - 00:37:26:29
You guys

00:37:26:29 - 00:37:28:27
thank you so much for joining us again.

00:37:28:27 - 00:37:31:17
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00:37:31:17 - 00:37:32:09
whatever you do

00:37:32:09 - 00:37:33:26
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00:37:33:26 - 00:37:35:13
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00:37:35:13 - 00:37:36:26
check out our other episodes

00:37:36:26 - 00:37:38:05
and if you have any questions

00:37:38:05 - 00:37:40:05
or any concerns, let me know.

00:37:40:05 - 00:37:41:12
Otherwise, keep changing

00:37:41:12 - 00:37:42:17
minds and changing lives.

00:37:42:17 - 00:37:43:08
See you next time.